Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

Damn raises an interesting point. How many GC Feminists have trans women a 2nd thought before self ID became an issue?

Why is that in any way relevant? It's an issue now people are aware of what is going on.

Ohhh this is that gish galloping thing isn't it?

Good spot

Pencils I've been trying my best but I'm pretty outnumbered here and also dealing with a vomiting toddler in RL!

How many GC Feminists have trans women a 2nd thought before self ID became an issue?

I've seen loads of posts on here saying 'Mumsnet opened my eyes to this problem'.

It seems a shame that so much fear and anger has been stirred up.

Thousands of us pointed out that the unintended consequences of including transgender identified males in both LGB organizations and feminist groups would be a take over by AGPs.

What Mumsnet alerted women to is what has already been done to endanger women and children in the name of quality.
If you look at some of the archived post women have linked to you will see that the discussion has been going on here for at least eight years.
I hope that answers your questions.
It would be good of you to answer those that have been asked of you.

Equality not quality, in both the GRA and the EA application.
We are angry that transgender advocates are going into schools to recruit children into the transgender ideology. Once you actually read what the Stonewall definition of transgender is you will also fear for the safety of women and children.

Well Damn, I'm on the same broad side of the fence as you.

What that means is that a lot of kids who are referred to a gender clinic are not really trans. But that's good, isn't it?

You see I've always wondered about this too; I appreciate the concerns of social contagion surrounding children and trans, but to me this very fact of so many referred to gender clinics who do not go on to transition; well to me that goes to show that's the system we have in place is identifying those affected by any social contagion and they are set back on their right path.

I know the subject of children and puberty blockers and hormones always comes up whenever someone like me says something like that, so I'm just going to preempt that by saying I don't for a second think I know more about when it is or isn't appropriate to prescribe children blockers than their own team of medical professionals. So I have no opinion on that that could possibly compete with their expertise. I don't think anybody should be buying and taking drugs bought on the internet and not under medical supervision, least of all children.

Well Damn, I'm on the same broad side of the fence as you.

where "broad" is subject to the same 1984 dictionary as any other formerly useful word.

I'm just going to preempt that by saying I don't for a second think I know more about when it is or isn't appropriate to prescribe children blockers than their own team of medical professionals.

I think I know that medical professionals are subject to the same political pressures and personal interests as anyone else. And having seen what I've seen about puberty blockers, we shouldn't be experimenting on children.

For some of us (perhaps many of us) the boy brain girl brain narrative supported by trans people, their allies and you, is a direct threat to the mental and physical wellbeing of our children, particularly those of us with autistic or gay dc. Would you like to comment on this?

Are you saying that you believe autistic or gay children may be persuaded to be trans by the 'trans narrative'? And that would affect their mental and physical wellbeing? From what I understand it would be pretty rare to identify as trans then change your mind but it does happen and I believe the safeguards currently in place protect vulnerable individuals from taking hormones unnecessarily. I don't think access to hormones should be made easier which I know some TRAs are arguing for.

As we have a trans woman on the thread she is probably in a better position to comment on what it would be like if being trans was not tolerated or accepted by society. And how that would affect her mental and physical wellbeing.

Once you actually read what the Stonewall definition of transgender is you will also fear for the safety of women and children.

I'm really curious about this, the ludicrously big transgender "umbrella".

My question is; I'm a bit confused as to what additional risk there is as a result of the umbrella being so wide?

I mean surely the only people who are going to be able to access female spaces from under that umbrella are those who identify as women - assuming that's the concern?

So what does it matter if Bob the crossdresser is under the umbrella, or Shaniqua the drag queen? They aren't going to be identifying as women (because they don't identify as women) so why does it make a difference if they're under it or not? The umbrella could have noone but transwomen underneath it and surely the impact of that on women would be just the same?

And this is a totally innocent question; I have no preconceived idea as to what the answer will be, I just keep seeing the size of the Stonewall umbrella being brought up all the time as posing some risk. I'm just trying to ascertain what that perceived risk might be.

I mean surely the only people who are going to be able to access female spaces from under that umbrella are those who identify as women - assuming that's the concern?

I don't understand the question. If males who identify as women use the space it cannot by definition be a "female space".

The question is, thebewilderness, why does it matter the size of the Stonewall umbrella?

What perceived additional threat is there from it's being so broad?

Can you help?

If males who identify as women use the space it cannot by definition be a "female space".

Quite - and that's what I want to keep - female spaces. As we repeatedly say, we are fighting for women's and girl's rights.

This is the crux of it for me - males "identifying" as women - self ID'ing as it were.

I would recognise a GRC - a legal change of sex, obvs not an actual change - because that means there has been a recognition of gender dysphoria - and IMO should also include a requirement for GRS to be complete (I know it currently doesn't - but it should IMO).

Saying any male can say they identify as a woman, and thus be treated as an actual female, and access any female space (we're not just talking toilets here) is exactly my problem - it shouldn't happen.

Daim how can you still not understand? It is your boy brain girl brain narrative that makes her dysphoric! She is trying to work out whether the fact that she rejects feminity means there is something wrong with her! She us trying to work out what being a girl is and whether it fits with her internal identity. When she comes up against people who define girls as feminity she thinks she must therefore have the wrong body. Very very high numbers of autistic children become transgender.

As we repeatedly say, we are fighting for women's and girl's rights

Indeed, but what about the Stonewall umbrella? Do you think it's a liability that it's so broad and includes people like cross-dressers and drag acts? I've seen it said more and more lately. Can you tell me why you think that please?

Don't worry if it's not something you've thought about, I'd just really like to know!

Here are the demands from Action For Trans Health. I won't link them but you can look them up.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-organisation-demands/

On the other hand when I am able to rationally explain that it is society's expectations that are wrong - that gurls and boys brains do not make them feminine or masculine concerns over her body settle down.

Identity is not live and let live. We are all in this together. My views of others affect them, their views of me affect me. Our views about ourselves affect each other. The language we use competes and creates and defines identity. Gender is SOCIAL.

^If you want something unbiassed, try ... Parliament's Women and Equalities Select Committee www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39002.htm^

Hahahaha you have to be kidding!

There was some really alarming written evidence submitted to the trans equality inquiry, including British Association of Gender Identity Specialists and The British Psychological Society (neither are noted radical feminist orgs). You won't find much reference to these alarm signals from frontline professionals in the final report because the government didn't listen to those people. None of them were asked to submit further documents or invited to give oral evidence. After the report was published, Maria Miller dismissed any dissent as coming from 'women purporting to be feminists'.

The people Miller actually consulted for the trans equality report were transactivists:

Action for Trans Health (Jess Bradley)
GIRES (Terry Reed)
Trans Media Watch (Helen Belcher)
Mermaids (Susie Green)
Anna Lee (Lancaster University Students’ Union)
Gendered Intelligence (Jay Stewart)
Scottish Transgender Alliance (James Morton)

Also some govt. departments and a few individual trans people. No women's groups were consulted.

That report is one of the most biased government documents I have ever read.

thebewilderness were they that nutty Tumblr group?

Anyway, what about that Stonewall umbrella?

You said:

Once you actually read what the Stonewall definition of transgender is you will also fear for the safety of women and children.

Why did you say that?

Why does what the stonewall definition of transgender is (i.e. broad) mean people should fear for the safety of women and children?

And that is why trans people must come here and argue their case for their identity which defines us. And it is why people who like the label cis must do the same. And it is why we too must fight for our own definitions.