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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transphobia or truths?

999 replies

TwittleBee · 11/05/2018 22:08

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

OP posts:
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16
SarahCarer · 13/05/2018 18:39

Because these entrenched sexist ideas are causing or at least massively contributing to the dysphoria our children are experiencing.

TERFragetteCity · 13/05/2018 18:42

I saw one trans woman today lamenting that they will no longer be able to go camping, do woodwork and other manly activities after transition.

I am not sure if it was a piss take or not.

It is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

PoulaFisch · 13/05/2018 18:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SarahCarer · 13/05/2018 18:45

The redefinition of woman as femininity is itself irrational and causes highly rational beings like my dd massive confusion.

PencilsInSpace · 13/05/2018 18:46

Surely that's not for me to say as I'm not the poster who stated there would be devastating consequences in the first place?

Oh sorry rat, I thought you had chipped in and joined the discussion between me and daim because you had something to contribute.

I seem to remember daim did already answer, citing that many had reported they were prepared to kill themselves had they not been able to live as the gender with which they identified.

Yeah, that's because daim has been trying to claim that getting a GRC has something to do with access to hormones and surgery. Whether from ignorance or disingenuousness I cannot tell. Maybe she will come back and clarify.

Of course if people with gender dysphoria are denied treatment that is likely to have serious and sometimes devastating consequences. As we all know (even daim by now, because enough of us have told her) this has nothing at all to do with the GRA.

Why do trans people need a GRC to 'live as the gender with which they identify'? How do the all but

SarahCarer · 13/05/2018 18:48

It is causing dysphoria. And yet those who uphold it have the audacity to come and make themselves feel virtuous by accusing thinking rational women who are standing up for their sex and the right to retain a science based definition of it as being driven by irrational bigotry

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 18:48

but you do call for the exclusion of trans women from female spaces

Because they are male.

Yes there have been instances of trans identified males being employed or allowed to access female spaces. That makes those spaces NOT FEMALE.

RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 18:58

because you had something to contribute.

I did, didn't I? Oh well, not to worry, no sense arguing about it; dinner time.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 19:05

Not really.

PencilsInSpace · 13/05/2018 19:07

Enjoy your dinner, rat Grin

Moonkissedlegs · 13/05/2018 19:07

I saw one trans woman today lamenting that they will no longer be able to go camping, do woodwork and other manly activities after transition.

Camping? Who? Who said this?!

ToeToToe · 13/05/2018 19:16

I must be a transman then, because I've enjoyed (well, somewhat enjoyed Wink ) camping many times.

Of course, I've got long hair, wear makeup and (on occasion) heels.

Oh what a conundrum.

As if camping is a male thing Confused or woodwork - I thought we were fighting against this rigid gender roles crap....

FlippinFumin · 13/05/2018 19:21

Yes. But what you are not then doing is suggesting that all Catholics or even priests should be excluded from children's spaces because they are a risk

As it turned out though, an awful lot of Catholic priests should have been excluded from children's spaces. Because they were a risk.

thebewilderness · 13/05/2018 19:39

The redefinition of woman as femininity is itself irrational and causes highly rational beings like my dd massive confusion.

The long term consequence of the backlash against feminism by the corporate interests has been devastating.
Susan Faludi wrote about it in "Backlash" in 1991, and while much has happened since then it is an excellent window on what they were doing and how they were orchestrating "The redefinition of woman as femininity". American centric, but in retrospect it was everywhere.

thebewilderness · 13/05/2018 19:53

natgt Sat 12-May-18 15:11:14

But I wasn't addressing all the self ID mess. I was addressing the "but I haven't seen anything transphobic on mumsnet" comment in the op...

Two things are happening, natgt, regarding this issue. One is that if we come late to a thread the comments that violate guidlines are deleted so we do not see them. The second you can learn about if you google "ratfucking".
Transgender advocates and MRAs have been ratfucking Mumsnet FWR forums for weeks.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 13/05/2018 19:57

Funny how these "I'm new to this debate" threads keep surfacing on Mumsnet — I think the last one was started just a couple of days ago, and they are easy enough to find if you type "transgender" into the search bar.

It's almost like someone wants to keep this particular pot boiling!

The reason these discussions are so often branded as "transphobic" is because they (almost) invariably follow the same pattern" a seemingly innocent question opens the door to "answers" that repeat the same old anti-trans propaganda, and the same old discredited links. If you want something unbiassed, try the NHS website. Or Parliament's Women and Equalities Select Committee www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39002.htm

No-one knows what the amended Gender Recognition Act might look like, because it hasn't been drafted yet. But it seems most likely that it will involve nothing more than a change to the administrative procedures required for the issue of a Gender Recognition Certificate. It won't affect anyone other than people who are actually applying for one.

If you don't believe me, ask yourself how often anyone has been asked to produce their birth certificate in order to go into a public loo or try on clothes in a clothes shop? So why would anyone go to the bother of getting a certificate to do something that they can do already without a certificate?

The other common "issue" is the idea that kids are being forced to transition — with the 80% "desistance" rate being quoted as "evidence".

What that means is that a lot of kids who are referred to a gender clinic are not really trans. But that's good, isn't it? Compare it with breast cancer statistics: 90% of women who have been referred for further tests after a mammogram turn out not to have breast cancer. Does that mean they are "desisters" who should never have been referred for the more specialist assessment? Or that the other 10% have "desisted" if they wanted to, but only chose to go on having cancer because they were referred for further tests? Of course it doesn't ! So why can't we just be pleased for the kids that aren't trans, and relieved that those who are trans are able to access the expert advice and help they need, at an early stage, when they can make a good transition and build a happy new life for themselves, rather than being forced to go through decades of misery before succumbing to an expensive, painful, and often unsatisfactory transition later on?

Incidentally, in case you hadn't guessed, I'm a transwoman. I'm post-op, (i.e. I've had "The Operation") and I have a GRC. I didn't particularly want the GRC process changed, because I saw it as a negligible benefit in exchange for a huge risk that it would trigger a surge of anti-trans hatred ... as indeed it has.

There should be room for civilised discussion of the issues. But I don't see any chance of that happening while the fear-mongering and abuse continues, while statistics are distorted and expert opinion ignored, and while a tiny minority of vociferous anti-trans campaigners exclude or shout down anyone (of any sex or gender) who doesn't share their views. (as we saw on the Genderquake debate last week, where a feminist speaker was heckled and abused by trans-exclusionary radical so-called "feminists").

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 13/05/2018 20:05

But what you are not then doing is suggesting that all Catholics or even priests should be excluded from children's spaces because they are a risk

These days they'd be police checked like everyone else has to be, with the aim of those few who could exploit a situation to abuse being screened out to avoid children and other vulnerable people being exposed to them. People died before those protections were put into place.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 20:19

There should be room for civilised discussion of the issues. But I don't see any chance of that happening while the fear-mongering and abuse continues

What would that be then?

while statistics are distorted and expert opinion ignored

Which statistics and which expert opinion?

and while a tiny minority of vociferous anti-trans campaigners exclude or shout down anyone (of any sex or gender) who doesn't share their views. (as we saw on the Genderquake debate last week, where a feminist speaker was heckled and abused by trans-exclusionary radical so-called "feminists").

Lol, which "feminist" speaker? Munroe Bergdorf? Grin

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 20:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

daimbars · 13/05/2018 20:21

Damn raises an interesting point. How many GC Feminists have trans women a 2nd thought before self ID became an issue?

I've seen loads of posts on here saying 'Mumsnet opened my eyes to this problem'.

It seems a shame that so much fear and anger has been stirred up.

daimbars · 13/05/2018 20:22

*gave

PencilsInSpace · 13/05/2018 20:29

Ohhh this is that gish galloping thing isn't it?

I was heavily involved in debates around vaping and public health a few years back and we had a similar concept - the bullshit asymmetry principle: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

Welcome to mumsnet Damnthatonestakentryanother2 Smile

Transphobia or truths?
SarahCarer · 13/05/2018 20:30

Damnthatonestaken - I promise you I do not hate trans people. Do you believe me? I am fighting against genderist ideology which suggests that boys brains and girl brains are different and that this, rather than socialisation, accounts for masculinity and feminity. This belief upholds sexist and mysoginistic ideologies and world views and causes dysphoria in my autistic dd. Many many people hold these views, including most who would call themselves cis or trans. Does my gender critical position have to be caused by bigotry? It is fully rational to me. It is supported by a wealth of research (the gender as a social construct position)

PencilsInSpace · 13/05/2018 20:32

How many GC Feminists have trans women a 2nd thought before self ID became an issue?

How many questions have you asked and then ignored the answers?

How many questions have you been asked and not answered?

Picassospaintbrush · 13/05/2018 20:33

Damnthatonestakentryanother2

You get full house for that post. Now you have dismissed us all with a lofty monologue, there is no need to hang around eh?