Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

LangCleg
If this is the rage we see when "the rad fems" get even the tiniest of hearings,

Rage? You mean a few well-mannered posts pointing out the factual "errors" and faulty logic in the anti-trans rhetoric?

Tiniest of hearings? You mean 800+ posts in one of many threads set up with the deliberate intention of airing anti-trans propaganda — presumably with the intention of inciting others to hatred?
Or the constant barrage of anti-trans propaganda in the mainstream press — often several anti-trans propaganda articles in a single edition of The Mail and Times?

And all targeted against a very tiny minority.

"Fairness and equality are basic British values. A litmus test for any society that upholds those values is how far it protects even the most marginalised groups. Britain has been among the countries going furthest in recognising lesbian, gay and bisexual rights, but we are still failing this test in respect of trans people, despite welcome progress.
High levels of transphobia are experienced by individuals on a daily basis (including in the provision of public services)—with serious results. About half of young trans people and a third of trans adults attempt suicide. ...

The NHS is letting down trans people: it is failing in its legal duty under the Equality Act. Trans people encounter significant problems in using general NHS services, due to the attitude of some clinicians and other staff who lack knowledge and understanding—and in some cases are prejudiced. The NHS is failing to ensure zero tolerance of transphobic behaviour.

We agree with the Chair of the NHS National Clinical Reference group for Gender Identity Services that: “not treating people [for gender dysphoria] is not a neutral act—it will do harm.”

The existing provisions on aggravated offences and stirring up hatred should be extended to all protected characteristics.
{all from the Parliamentary Select Committee Report)

Goodness my scroll bar is getting a workout.

"Trans is a diversion from the fights that matter. I think this is deliberate, that the agenda is far bigger than it presents itself to be. "

Your quote is the title of a topic I'd love to see hosted here. If you did this I swear I would do nothing except shut up and watch.

Your battle-front is my entire war.

You mean 800+ posts in one of many threads set up with the deliberate intention of airing anti-trans propaganda — presumably with the intention of inciting others to hatred?

Wow just Wow. I think you need to re-read the OP? Also, how is sensible debate about these issues even "inciting hatred"?

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 do feel free to continue to directly address me but also do be aware that I'm unlikely to respond to you beyond this post. I find you to be an unpleasant and dictatorial person who can't go more than a sentence without a dog whistle. I imagine you hold similarly negative opinions about me. Therefore, I'd prefer not to interact directly with you in this feminist space set up for women. I prefer to interact and share thoughts with other feminist women in spaces such as these. This may sound rude but I find honesty is the best policy.

Also, how is sensible debate about these issues even "inciting hatred"?

This level of histrionic hyperbole is somewhat typical of transactivists.

MadBadDaddy
My post (which you've included in your list) was in response to Datun's and was focussed on the girl who might be removed from the school changing room should she feel uncomfortable.

without a dog whistle

There were quite a lot about dog leg cocking too!

@twittle bee - Did you ever draw a picture of a Chair by only drawing the Negative Spaces of triangle and rectangles? Eventually, you see a chair but you didn't directly draw any part of it.

The "context" is the flood of opinions I have provoked, and so long as I'm clinging to this spotlight there isn't really an alternative context.

You might not take me seriously (I struggle) and I may well be doing this 'badly' but that's b/c I'm a total amateur. Up until I posted, the statements I noted were all about what Trans people (like me) are not (ie 'negative'). I didn't recognise "my people" in any of it, so how could I accept that anyone here could?

After I posted, the statements changed to describe me (ie an individual Transperson) in terms of what I am as well as what I represent. These are positive statements, whether good or bad.

None of you care much to distinguish me from whatever i represent. I say you are being unreasonable not to do so. I have as much control of FWR as I do the bloody TRA. (who'd tell me to piss off, too, except I'd also be a Transphobic TERT or something)

Your quote is the title of a topic I'd love to see hosted here. If you did this I swear I would do nothing except shut up and watch.

Why don't you start the topics you want to start, rather than get a woman to do the job for you? Same old same old...

"Trans is a diversion from the fights that matter. I think this is deliberate, that the agenda is far bigger than it presents itself to be. "

Your quote is the title of a topic I'd love to see hosted here. If you did this I swear I would do nothing except shut up and watch.

Yep agreed. The beef all feminists have is with male violence - but the enemy of the rad fems on here is their fellow females and harmless trans women. Makes no sense.

Honestly, thanks for the pearls, I'll try not to stamp on them.

"This may sound rude but I find honesty is the best policy."
If I told you that seeing an 'aside' like that is one of the reasons I stick around here, you wouldn't believe me for a minute.

@R0wantrees - I accept that all of these are taken away from any other context, but picture this: I'm queuing at the post office and all this gossip is what i'm imagining or hearing being whispered. As a Brit, I've obvs. spent a lifetime in various queues, and have always heard the whispers, whether imagined or not. Your questions here have been my questions since childhood. You think you're frustrated by a lack of answers? Or that any 'goads' I hear are even original? This is me, losing my shit at the Post Office (Brixton branch, for some reason) on a hot day. I suppose this is what 'triggered' looks like.

@TERFragetteCity "Why don't you start the topics you want to start, rather than yada bada bing women."

• That's just not going to ever work is it? I can't even suggest a Suggestion Box without someone accusing me of subconscious patriarchal motives. I suppose I really am demanding your submissive acquiescence please.

okay MadBadDaddy look its fine that you are a "total amateur" - so am I, I'm young and still learning the ways in which to best present my point. No one is able to distinguish an individual here (unless that individual is themselves) but because that is not possible people refer back to statistics - currently the evidence shows that men are dangerous to women and there are biological differences between men and women which need respecting - this remains the same for transwomen towards women. However, I am genuinely interested in what some people find transphobic - I'm not an idiot, I have seen some nasty stuff on twitter towards trans and I think they should have respect but just not at the cost of women. But what specifically is transphoic on the trans and Self-ID threads on MN, and why do you see them as being transphobic?

MadBadDaddy I hear you

JoanSummers Great minds and all that.

JoanSummers you're wrong (as usual)

Btw daimbars or Damnthatonestakentryanother2 please also see post directed to MadBadDaddy above.

JoanSummers ditto

TwittleBee hands up on here who is scared of trans people?

(Sees all the hands waving)

In my opinion your fears are irrational and irrational fears are knows as phobias.

I am not scared of trans people, I am scared of the ability of men to hurt me.

I'm also scared of drowning so I wear a life jacket while ocean sailing, this is a safeguarding regulation in place. No one call this a phobia.

I'm scared of going through a windscreen when driving, seatbelts are a legally enforced safeguard requirement. No-one calls this a phobia.

Sex segregation is a legally enforced safeguarding requirement. Self ID undermines that. We will not call this a phobia.

Your opinion Daim is uninformed and bigoted and therefore worthless. Sorry to break it to you

/engagement with open misogynists

daimbars I believe you aren't fully understanding or grasping the concerns of people here. Also not sure I've seen any direct fear of transpeople over here? Picassospaintbrush puts it well.

Trans is a diversion from the fights that matter. I think this is deliberate, that the agenda is far bigger than it presents itself to be.

we all support each other expressing our individual identities. Wtf does any of that mean?

That means it's a top down movement, largely led by white, straight, middle and upper class males, with no interest in dismantling power relations or structural inequality because they are already at the top of the pile. The only claim to oppression relies on individual and superficial presentation so respecting individual identities becomes paramount. Otherwise, all the actually oppressed people might realise that the white, straight, middle and upper class males are staging a coup.

This!!

Maybe daimbars has raised an interesting thought though. If some people, TRAs etc, think those being GC are scared of transwomen then perhaps that is why they feel they are able to push us into submission?