Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

I don't have a problem with spontaneous's posts that I have seen. Not that you need my validation Spontaneous, just saying.

spontaneousgiventime can say what she likes, she makes women look great.

Unapologetic misogony gives misogynists a bad name.

I'm mostly willing spontaneous to have a happy Thursday, actually. Don't forget the sunscreen if you're going to be outdoors!

JoanSummers Did someone say something? Yes, Oh damn I missed it, they can't have been important.

Mishogany, a type of wood a men use to beat a woman round the head.

Why thank you AngryAttackKittens I hope you have a lovely day too.

Sorry, I missed your post Picassospaintbrush Thank you.

If this is the rage we see when "the rad fems" get even the tiniest of hearings, what is going to happen when the "anti PC brigade" (who outnumber rad fems by about 1000 to 1) realise that this isn't an intra-left spat between the feminazis and the t-words* but is something that will actually impact them?

(*I say t-word but the "anti PC brigade" won't.)

Wasn't it Swim England who said that some women have penises and if you are uncomfortable seeing them in the female changing room, you need to think again?

Yes. It was also Swim England who said that some men have breasts and should behave modestly by keeping them covered up in men's changing rooms.

There you have it - written to enable male violence and women should shut up, cover up and move if they don't like being on the receiving end of the crime of indecent exposure. Well that's one way to deal with police cuts - make prosecutions of any crime against women and children impossible

If TIM's had thought this through, there was an honour system where they used women's spaces. Along came TRA and now there is all kinds of demands being thrown around. What they don't think about is, allow self ID and those TIM's who use women's spaces are now more at risk than they were before. Still, I'm sure they see some rhyme or reason to all of this.

As I stated in my OP, I am genuinely interested to see what is classed as transphobic.

However, it appears that just being a woman that is concerned about her and other women and girl's rights is transphobic and that discussing anything about statistics or penises is transphobia.

you are uncomfortable seeing them in the female changing room, you need to think again?

Yes, they said women who were uncomfortable should be "educated" to deal with it.

Twittlebee - yep

spontaneous because all trans people have hive minds? Yet rad fems do not.

Plus the very definition of feminism - women's liberation, is transphobic.

TwittleBee Absolutely. If things carry on along the same path, the word woman will be transphobic soon.

It is. You have to add cisgender. We need a ladybird book of bonkers language.

What is it with the if you're not down with every single bonkers demand issued by extremist TRAs you are therefore a rad fem nonsense?

Daimbars - you do realise that the vast majority of gender critical women you talk to on here are not rad fems? Stop trying to name the enemy. There isn't an enemy. There are just ordinary people with a range of views - most of which diverge from your extremist TRA position.

I'm not a rad fem. I'd see myself as rad fem adjacent in that I have a class, not an individualist, analysis and I see biology and reproductive role/capacity as the root of women's oppression. But I'm not a blank slatist and I see social class and class reproduction, not sex, as the primary drivers of inequality in the UK. So I differ from a pure rad fem position in vitally important aspects.

Not everything is about trans. Not everything must be defined with regard to its position on trans. That activists can't see past everything being defined in relation to trans is emblematic of its narrow-minded, blinkered approach and inability to see the context in which its demands operate.

Significant article by James Kirkup in light of this afternoon's parliamentary debate on homophobia, biphobia and transphobia:

concludes:
"Transgender people suffer prejudice and harm. Like any other group, they include good people and bad, saints and sinners, those who want to shout from the rooftops about their identity and those who just want to live their lives and be left alone. As a group, they deserve much better from the law, from society, from politics.

But “better” should not come at the expense of others who also deserve an improved deal. Nor should it be based on anything less than a full, open and factual debate: laws and conventions arising from a chilled, restricted political and public conversation will be walls built on sand.

And right now, the debate about gender and the law is not full and open, not least because in their rush to speak for the rights and interests of one minority group, politicians, charities, bits of the media and other parts of civil society are ignoring the interests of another. Politics is failing over transgenderism, and part of that failure is the failure to listen to, and speak for, lesbians."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

It's my impression that there are maybe a dozen or so witches, I mean radfems, here (raises hand!). And then a lot of other feminists of various varieties, and a bunch of other women who may not even have been particularly interested in politics until something clued them in to the fact that the goals currently being pursued by trans activists are a threat to their legal rights and protections.

Nothing is about trans really. Or better to say nothing real is about trans.

Trans is a diversion from the fights that matter. I think this is deliberate, that the agenda is far bigger than it presents itself to be.

Bergdorf's programme last night for example. We are told that what is happening with gender is revolutionary and that the most important thing is that we all support each other expressing our individual identities. Wtf does any of that mean?

It's like having coloured silhouettes dancing in apple ads as a replacement for philosophical thought and discussion, and choosing lipstick and hair dye as a substitute for politics. It's so vacuous it's really hard to believe anyone is going along with it at all.

Finally! Some (technically) positive descriptions of an individual Trans person, based on a sample size of One!

[fires up the cherry-picker]
Let's see how you responded to my outrageously self-serving opinions:
"we're difficult/confusing/unusual people and expect everyone else to work around it" (well-DUH! for the first bit anyway)
"stating that women's rights are threatening"
"women need to shut up "
"we should treat them -as a group - as a potential threat "
"..a person expose their penis in front of her, is that transphobic?"
"congenital condition" (not my phrasing, but OK)
"the alt-right bastions of toxic masculinity" (v.poetic)
"narcissist" (yawn)
" straw dollies " x3
"desparation" (pfft - finally!)
"going to get up someone's nose"
"some women have penises"
"(women) need to be re-educated"
" felt shy about showing his penis in the women's changing room but liked it being touched."
"what if he looks at her body"
"alternative changing arrangement for the child who feels uncomfortable around the trans* person."
"TRA"
"handmaiden"
"Troll Thursday"
" a bit of sun and out they come"
"truth becomes transphobia with the simple addition of a man telling you so"
"abusive men"
"Questions are hate crime!"
"Unapologetic misogony"
"I say t-word but the "anti PC brigade" won't."
*
Results:
Transphobia? No.
Laughed at? Yes.
Ignored as a person? Not right now, it seems.
Physically threatened? No.
Dismissed? Yes
Referred to indirectly? yes
Bothered? No.
Heard? No.
Physically sick? Pending.

You'll never see me blocking anyone's stairwell, and so you'll probably never, ever know anyone like me, aka Mr./Mrs. 0.1%.

From my perspective, it's "you feminists" (~10%/3 million UK women) that won't leave me alone.

From my perspective, it's "you feminists" (~10%/3 million UK women) that won't leave me alone.

In your dreams?

MadBadDaddy

From my perspective, it's "you feminists" (~10%/3 million UK women) that won't leave me alone

Isn't that because you have come onto a feminist board though and have been engaging?

Also not quite sure what taking quotes out of context is meant to achieve from your perspective?

It's my impression that there are maybe a dozen or so witches, I mean radfems, here (raises hand!). And then a lot of other feminists of various varieties, and a bunch of other women who may not even have been particularly interested in politics until something clued them in to the fact that the goals currently being pursued by trans activists are a threat to their legal rights and protections.

Exactly. We must all be corralled and herded into a group - rad fems aka witches - that can then be isolated and abused. Misogyny 101 - burn the witch and warn all potential witches.

we all support each other expressing our individual identities. Wtf does any of that mean?

That means it's a top down movement, largely led by white, straight, middle and upper class males, with no interest in dismantling power relations or structural inequality because they are already at the top of the pile. The only claim to oppression relies on individual and superficial presentation so respecting individual identities becomes paramount. Otherwise, all the actually oppressed people might realise that the white, straight, middle and upper class males are staging a coup.