Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

Or conversely you might say it is a clear demonstration that women's rights matter to women. You and other transgender advocates have made it clear to everyone that you view women's rights as anti trans.
Because of this admission it is highly unlikely that you will see legislation that makes it a crime for women to say no to you.

The anti woman hatred that transgender identified males have encouraged and promoted for the past fourteen years has taken a toll on your credibility.

The dismissiveness of women's rights by some of the trans community is a clear indication of them and their motivations. This was never about trans rights.

I didn't check all 800 messages, but is there any mention of transgender people who aren't:
TRA
Fully transitioned transexuals
Harrassers
Convicted criminals
Violent
Entitled
Space invaders
Deluded
Bearded
Sick
Horny
Perverted
Fetishist
Paedos
Men in dresses, lipstick, etc.
Lesbian-botherers
Aspiring to Menstruation, breast feeding, cervical smears, etc.
Misogynists
Easily triggered bloody students
Piss takers
Irrelevant
?
Or am I the only one? :)

You want this debate to have some credibility, but clearly no-one here (that I've read) has a single clue as to what trans actually is, nor cares enough to find out.

MadBadDaddy ah yeah I think you should have rtft because you've missed quite a bit clearly.

Someone open a window..

What I want to see is legislation that makes it just as illegal to incite trans hatred as it already is to incite racial or religious hatred.

But the things said about women; the threats to kill, rape and injure "TERFS", don't concern you? This doesn't worry you? www.feministcurrent.com/2018/05/01/trans-activism-become-centered-justifying-violence-women-time-allies-speak/

Might be time to clean your own house of bigotry and violence.

If there is anything good to come out of Mumsnet's anti-trans propaganda threads like this one, it is that it provides evidence to government of just how pernicious anti-trans propaganda has become.

Yep, this one has gone too far IMO and contains blatant and unapologetic transphobia.

Shame as many GC posters are making intelligent points but when they are being backed up by bigotry and nonsense it weakens the argument.

damnthatonestaken

The main purpose of the proposals is to open GRC up to those who are fully transitioned but cannot meet the current requirements for "proof". These include (for instance) those whose surgeons are no longer practising (or may even be dead)

A surgeon/surgery is not required for a GRC

Or those who do not have the paperwork required -- perhaps because they do not own their own home,

Not required

do not have steady jobs,

Not required

or have lost contact with a former wife without having divorced.

That was careless - have they checked down the back of the sofa? I kid. Here is the process to divorce a missing husband or wife:
www.gov.uk/divorce-missing-husband-wife

A personal friend of mine (who is divorced) has lost her decree absolute,
The court can find the records for you. Here is the process, it's quite simple:
www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

Either you are are really poorly informed or you're not being honest. Wonder which it is?

JoanSummers

Someone open a window

Who exactly are you referring to? The trans woman who posted shortly before you?

every police force in the uk considers transphobia a hate crime like racism. Only one considers misogyny.

Sex discrimination has been totally written out of most organisations policies and been replaced by gender discrimination. So death threats to women are cool, whilst not allowing a man to do whatever they want if they identify as whatever they want is totally a hate crime.

Now can I get a round of applause for that!

Mad bad daddy. So what did you find offensive in my Post?

I made it clear up front that there are many transpeople who do not threaten my rights in any way. I then focussed on resolving issues of some transpeople who do threaten my rights. I did not say if that threat was intentional or simply a by product of their actions, and identified a condition under which I would feel their actions to be reasonable.

I did not accuse that subgroup of transpeople of anything. I simply asserted that I I have rights too.

Oh I see you didn't read the whole read you just cherry picked a few.

Even your list is bizarre... a thread about transphobia is highly likely to mention transsexuals, and TRAs as ( not mutually exclusive ) types of transpeople. If we can't talk about them how can we have a discussion? Or should we treat all transpeople as a stereotypical homogenous group rather than as individual people with different behaviours?

Well - all the true colours in full display, I see!

When interacting with narcissists who cannot conceive of any other interests than their own, it is always worth remembering that any accusation they throw at you about your behaviour is actually an admission about their own behaviour.

Projecting like an old fashioned film theater, some of them! It's quite funny to watch.

You want this debate to have some credibility, but clearly no-one here (that I've read) has a single clue as to what trans actually is, nor cares enough to find out.

Im well aware

And personally i very rarely mention much of your list

But yeah, there are piss takers and im worried about the effects of pisstakers

That unbrella of trans that stonewall have is fucking huge

Even im under it!!

Projecting like an old fashioned film theater, some of them! It's quite funny to watch.

Indeed!

That list is useful. If you eliminate any men who reflect it (apart from beards, dresses and lipstick, obvs), however they identify, absolutely, the rest can have a seat at the table.

This is probably the hundredth time I've said this, but if women could identify which men are going to make them feel uncomfortable, assault them, or kill them, we could just swerve them, all the day long day, and everyone could pack up and go home.

I've still yet to hear of any formula that makes that identification possible. But I'm open to suggestion.

daimbars
Who exactly are you referring to? The trans woman who posted shortly before you?

What a reach! What you lack in argument you really try to make up for with effort ey

You do realise every time you do this you make it clear how groundless your position is?

So JoanSummers you're saying you are fine with trans women but need the room airing when other women come in and speak up in support of trans women?

Well excuse me! My point was confusing b/c i am a confused individual. We'll all just have to live with that one for now.

If I say nothing, then I'm left waiting for your social issues to find a way (or even an inclination) to stop driving a truck through my personal issues. I'm sorry you are having to deal with 'my' messy worldviews whenever they turn up and punch you in the face.

I'd say exactly the same to any TRA dickhead if i ever got close enough to spit on one. I don't need them to protect my pronouns,
just like I don't need a coffee morning from MN feminists.

My horrible, projecting list was compiled every time I saw a comment saying something like "some are fetishists, but NATALT" which would put 'fetishist' in my list.

So the list is like a negative spaces definition of Trans people, based on this board. (My art teacher can explain Negative Space if need be.) By this process of elimination, a psoitive definition of Trans may arise, but who here is looking for anything like that?

I was hoping to unearth something a bit more obvious and 'positive',(maybe I just missed it) but like the name says...

Shame you can't agree on a united front

Why do you feel it's not possible for people to have differing views while still respecting/getting on with each other?

Ooh do we all get to state we're difficult/confusing/unusual people and expect everyone else to work around it too?

The 'social issues' of others you feel are driving a truck through your personal issues are the potentially very serious loss of rights for women and girls. That's what is under discussion here. You have the option not to read any thread here if it bothers you, but stating that women's rights are threatening to your personal issues so women need to shut up about them (on a feminist rights forum) in order to protect you first is possibly a bit unreasonable don't you think?

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

That link above shows why Transwomen must be looked at in general same way as men are looked at in general.

To quote another MNer on another thread:

There is clearly a difference in behaviour and criminality. Transwomen do not take on female patterns of behaviour just because they ID as a women. Therefore it's quite clear we should treat them -as a group - as a potential threat to the safety of women and children, just as we do ordinary men - as a group.

every police force in the uk considers transphobia a hate crime like racism. Only one considers misogyny.

But how do they define transphobia?

If I say that I don't want my daughter in a women's changing room to see a person expose their penis in front of her, is that transphobic?

MIdgebabe
every police force in the uk considers transphobia a hate crime like racism. Only one considers misogyny.
Almost any crime may be treated as a hate crime if it is motivated by hatred of someone with one of the protected characteristics, but "transphobia" (or inciting transphobia) is not a crime. Yet.

A things stand at present, it is not a criminal offence to incite hatred of trans people because of their congenital condition, but it is a criminal offence to incite hatred of people who make a personal choice to believe that the universe was created by a magical being who (according to them) said “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
and that:-
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Older women ... are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands,
The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord
Plenty more where those came from!

What I find completely bizarre is that some so-called "feminists" have joined forces with organisations that promote these views because they share a common hatred of trans people! It makes no sense to me whatsoever.
If someone can explain it to me, I would be genuinely grateful.
(similarly, I would love to know why the TERFs have chosen to join forces with the alt-right bastions of toxic masculinity)