Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

Are you talking to me Pencils? We were discussing on another thread but I agree the self ID proposals are poorly thought out.

I've already offended lots of Christians with my gay wedding but no I didn't realise the word damn was more offensive than fuck. You learn something new everyday on feminism chat!

@spontaneousgiventime

I agree. The only line that will work is a hard one.

Well, I see another JAQer has given up the JAQing to come out as an extremist TRA.

Yes I thought that. "But like I totally get you about self ID!"

daimbars
If you read the thread you will see who Pencils is addressing.

Shame you can't agree on a united front - at the moment you are split into two camps of 'genuine transsexuals are no problem' and 'anyone born with male anatomy should never be considered female and the existing legislation is bonkers'

As to there being a dozen or so anti-trans (or whatever the current activist word for witch is) women left in the country and you can find them all here on Mumsnet. Well. Have some polling from Scotland.

wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/genderq.jpg

Gosh. 3 to 1 against reform of the GRA.

There's a reason the Guardian rarely opens comments on trans articles. Because if you think some threads end up like Swiss cheese hereabouts, over at the Guardian it's orders of magnitude worse and even then they can't get a comments section that's majority pro.

This is a top down movement. And, just like Brexit, when the bottom rebels, it is not going to be pretty.

Shame you can't agree on a united front

Why? Who do you think we are? Mumsnet bots or something? Stepford Mumsnetters? Blimey o'Reilly, daim, you've given up all pretence, aintcha?!

Shame you can't agree on a united front

Not a hive mind. Just like not all liberal feminists are clueless vacuous virtue signallers.

LangCleg when I started this other thread I got lots of thoughtful, intelligent replies and pretty much half said they support the existing GRA.

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad femswww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245474-questions-from-a-liberal-feminist-to-the-rad-fems

So a bit shocked to come on here and read all the 'anyone born male will never be allowed in female spaces' type posts!

You're probably watching the women of the UK go #peaktrans in real time, daim. Because I'm seeing this talked about x10 than I was only a few months ago. And not in the way transactivists would hope.

I notice that we are also seeing a ramping up of attitude coming the other way. Like I say - even the JAQers aren't bothering to JAQ these days.

Shame you can't agree on a united front

You think its a shame people have different opinions

Alright then

Echo - silence
Echo - silence
Echo - silence

Nope, not and echo chamber.

Gender dysphoria is so terrible you must give in to all our demands or we will die
but also
How dare you say trans is an illness or that gender dysphoria is necessary to be trans

If we are forced to use male facilities we will be attacked
but also
Your fear of males in female facilities is irrational and transphobic

Changes to the GRA will make completely no difference to you rights so shut up
but also
Nobody even knows what the proposed changes are yet because they haven't been published

You're all in an echo chamber
but also
Hahaha you can't even agree with each other

Total bollocks.

This idea that half the human population is an amorphous undifferentiated blob of femaleness while the male half is made up of individuals is one of the oddest world views I have ever come across.
The myriad ways in which half the population is still dismissed is a bit shocking.

I'd rather JAQ, than Fleetwood Mac.

Thanks for that Ereshkigal, earworms in time for bed.

I suspect she returns the compliment.

Yep.

Tbf there's only about 10 of you hardcore regulars,

Nope.

we are all working off line, don't be fooled.

Exactly.

Men aren't women. Whatever paperwork they have. I could live with the current crop of GRC holders having access because the number is negligible. They aren't women though.

You can't change sex. Men are a threat to women, however they identify.

I don't consent to them in women's spaces. As soon as they challenge that, they demonstrate why.

The idea that reality can be changed by completing the correct forms and receiving a certificate from the government is so bizarre to me. If the government issued me an ID stating that I was now 5ft 10 it would be strange and interesting that they'd done that, but in reality I'd still be 5ft2.

5ft2 is the perfect height

i agree that self ID is wrong, for the many reasons already stated, i also agree about pre-op trans people not using womens changing areas, especially as there are often young children, mostly young girls present. i would of been horrified if my daughter had come home when she was younger and announced there was a pre-op transgender present in the changing room. i am currently pre-op trans as i explained somewhere on or near page 14 of this debate. and i can understand the concerns demonstrated. some have seemed quite extreme, but having worked both in child care and mental health care, i can fully appreciate the fears that women have of men, and those transitioning. also 20 years ago, my dissertation was based on womens rights, it the research i did was a real eye opener as to the abuse women have suffered from men, not just physically, but psychologically, and even in language. my mother was a strong feminist, and i know some may not believe or understand, but thats how i feel. and ive been on , and seen the radical trans people, and there are a large percentage, especially on the usa based sites, that seem to be motivated by a myriad of fetishes. but i did attend a local group, most of whom would support my views and comments, but i also understand how on earth can a woman tell which trans person is genuine, and which are acting, to gain and invade womens privacy, it would be impossible to know. personally, i wouldn't even dream of entering a male or female changing room, because i wouldn't feel safe in a male area, and i wouldn't want to cause concern to any women in their area. but i do use womens toilets, if their are no 3rd options available. but it's also worth mentioning, that three out of four local tearooms that i use, have unisex toilets, in the sense, that they only have one loo, as space is of the owners prime concern, but these are also very old buildings, that are not accessible for disabled people even. but as the locals know that there's no choice, they still frequent their favourite cafes, and thus accept the one unisex toilet facility. others may use other cafes that do have gender specific toilets. but the main issue is with self ID and changing rooms, and i totally agree that pre-op trans should respect that, as i do, for my mother my sister and my daughter. and once ive had my op, i still don't think i could use any changing rooms, as in the unlikely scenario, i would be horrified if i walked in and my daughter was there. but ive never used any changing rooms anyway, even when i was young, i would wait till i got home and shower/bath then. this debate is about respecting peoples rights, and their safety and privacy. my apologies for the length of this post

PencilsInSpace
Strictly speaking, a GRC is neither here nor there for trans people legally, aside from a couple of very specific situations. It's almost obsolete.
Pleased that you at last accept that fact.

What the self-ID proposals do - have already done before any legal changes, is change the culture around what and who women are expected to put up with in our spaces (in the widest sense).
Shame you can't be equally realistic about this one.
No "pervert" or even an innocent hobby crossdresser is going to want to have his/her boss, his family, the DVLA, the taxman, his GP, anyone who looks at the electoral roll or sees the name on his post etc.etc. knowing that although he presents as Dave for everyday life, his legal identity is Brenda. In practice, who will apply for a new style GRC are 24/7 transitioned or (possibly).

The main purpose of the proposals is to open GRC up to those who are fully transitioned but cannot meet the current requirements for "proof". These include (for instance) those whose surgeons are no longer practising (or may even be dead) Or those who do not have the paperwork required -- perhaps because they do not own their own home, do not have steady jobs, or have lost contact with a former wife without having divorced. A personal friend of mine (who is divorced) has lost her decree absolute, and has only just recently begun her GRC application under the current rules because she has lost her decree absolute.

The other thing to consider is that the GRA interacts with other legislation.
Do you seriously think that any government is likely to legalize rape or sexual violence??

governments only last a handful of years, after that all bets are off.
And the Windrush generation scandal shows why every transitioned trans person needs to be able to get a GRC.

I'm sure I've had this exact exchange with you very recently You have. So why are you trying to keep this pot boiling?

By the way, did you know that some christians consider 'damn' to be a really bad swear? I've met christians who consider it far worse than words like piss, shit, fuck, cunt, prick, tits or arse.
By the way, did you know that my username is a transcript of the error message that comes up if you apply for a Mumsnet username that is already taken?
And, TBH, although I've come across some christians who are trans-accepting or trans-allies, I have come across so much transphobia, and dishonest propaganda from self-professed "Christians" that I really don't care what they think. When someone lies or abuses me, they can hardly demand that I respect their opinions on anything else.

LangCleg
You're probably watching the women of the UK go #peaktrans in real time, daim. Because I'm seeing this talked about x10 than I was only a few months ago. And not in the way transactivists would hope.
Yes... we have seen a huge amount of transphobic propaganda over the past year or so. It's high time it was stopped. Personally, I think the Gender Recognition Act is a relatively trivial matter. What I want to see is legislation that makes it just as illegal to incite trans hatred as it already is to incite racial or religious hatred.

I notice that we are also seeing a ramping up of attitude coming the other way. Like I say - even the JAQers aren't bothering to JAQ these days
If there is anything good to come out of Mumsnet's anti-trans propaganda threads like this one, it is that it provides evidence to government of just how pernicious anti-trans propaganda has become.