Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

I don't do FB. I've heard too many horror stories, I leave it to my kids. I do Twitter sometimes

Slightly off topic but has anyone seen Datun recently? She often used to frequent these parts.

I'm wondering if some of the rad fems have de-transitioned from their peak trans.

Datun posted here yesterday. As peak trans as ever sad for you

Slightly off topic but has anyone seen Datun recently? She often used to frequent these parts.

We had a thread about it - do keep up.

I'm wondering if some of the rad fems have de-transitioned from their peak trans.

LOL. In your dreams.

Datun is far too intelligent to de-transition from peak trans.

I don't particularly want rad fems in my space but if you were respectful towards me I would be respectful to you.

Interesting thing to say, isn't it? I don't particularly like the views of many religious conservatives, but I wouldn't say I don't want them in my space in this way because it makes no sense. I might say I don't want to be friends with them or that certain topics are probably best not raised, but their views aren't infectious so what's the issue?

Most likely "being childish and spiteful" is the explanation, but it does make me wonder if some people think spaces are for affinity groups in some sort of nebulous sense, so you would have the "people who like Instagram and fashion" toilets and the "people who knit" changing rooms.

Ah glad she's still here -I think she's utterly bonkers but I like the way she writes.

I think she's utterly bonkers

Ok, daimbars that's you joining Rat in the ignore bin. Your views and now calling of Datun have sickened me.

I suspect she returns the compliment.

I suspect she returns the compliment.

Damn straight.

The ignore bin

love it.

Tbf there's only about 10 of you hardcore regulars, it's noticeable when one drops off the radar.

At least she hasn't been eaten up by a scary trans monster.

For sure Datun is the odd one in that scenario...

As I understand it a legal grc holding women should be accepted in society as a women but during the current process of transition accepts that they are not actually a female and accepts that there are occasions when that difference actually matters, perhaps because their medication might depend on genetics. They accept that access into areas based on sex may exclude them. This is the law not transphobia.

My experiance of such women is that they ...well they act like women and put other peoples needs and wishes before their own. These transwomen are biologically male but actively demonstrate their female socialisation.

This I am comfortable with.

I do appreciate that it may mean that they cannot live their lives totally as they would wish. Yes this is discriminating , based on sex , using laws that have been brought in to counterbalance the negative sexual discrimination and violence that women experiance in life. Laws brought in to help women live their lives more as they would wish, because a significant minority of men deny them that right.

A choice or acceptance of gender identity does not affect sex. They can live as their chosen gender. They cannot live as another sex. Refusing transwomen access to women safe space is as dicrimatory as refusing men access to those spaces.

Yes it then leaves transpeople in a uncomfortable position if they don't want to use a third space, the only rational there is fear of being identified and attacked as a transperson. But I don't want males in the women's area for fear of being sexually violated. Stalemate?

Therefore I would ask a transwomen as a women supporter to think of a way past the stalemate that does not attempt to obsfuscate sex.

i think the third space could work. Private room in a hospital or disabled cubicles in a gym for example. I would suggest that a person seeing someone enter a gender neutral disabled changing room is unlikely to think "transperson" , they are more likely to think " disabled person" because there are a lot more disabled persons than transpersons. Thus they can be reassured that they are safe.

I would be happy to use the disabled changing rooms should a man get into the habit of entering the ladies. I would not worry that I might be taken as a transperson. My worry there is that if every woman did that there would be rather a queue for resources that are provisioned for a small number of disadvantaged users.

If it's not about danger and threats to transpeople and just about what they want, well my mother always said " I want never gets"

Ah. Ranting?

we are all working off line, don't be fooled.

Anybody else run into Bev Jo's misogyny club on the FB?

I don't facebook either. I used to read someones excellent tumblr blog but it went private. Which is a damn shame because as I said, it was excellent.

Picassospaintbrush MN is a microcosm of what is happening in the wider world. I fully admit to being hard line. When I first said I was, I got my arse handed to me. As time has gone on I see more and more posters agreeing with my stance (I know I was far, far from the first hard-liner here). Certainly, not everyone is hard line (I view hard-line as not accepting even post op TIM's as women) and that's fine. I like to read different views from rad fems.

Not ranting at all. Wonderful post

I like to read different views

Today in things you will never see a TRA say...

Second rule of transactivism: different views are transphobic.

Well, I'm transphobic then, I even read TRA views initially. not now, shudder I do like reading other rad fems though, they often make me think.

Damn - The proposed change in the law (which no-one has seen because it hasn't been drafted yet) won't make any difference at all to anyone's access to public toilets or changing rooms.

We can get a fair idea from Theresa May's pronouncements and from the Scottish consultation documents what the proposed new GRA might look like.

The proposals are to remove all the requirements for evidence. Applicants will no longer have to show they have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or that they have 'lived as' the new gender for 2 years (in practice a few official docs in the new name - passport, drivers licence, DWP, HMRC letters, payslips, household bills etc.)

The proposals don't just change an administrative procedure for those who would have applied for a GRC anyway, they expand eligibility to anyone with £140 and a biro (fee waiver for anyone on a low income). It's true you'll also have to pay a solicitor's fee to notarise the stat dec. A quick google shows the going rate for this service is £5.

Strictly speaking, a GRC is neither here nor there for trans people legally, aside from a couple of very specific situations. It's almost obsolete. What the self-ID proposals do - have already done before any legal changes, is change the culture around what and who women are expected to put up with in our spaces (in the widest sense).

The other thing to consider is that the GRA interacts with other legislation. It may seem like it makes no difference to allow people to self-ID to get an obsolete document, but if another law is then amended to allow further rights to people with a GRC we could be in deep shit. For example the trans equality report also recommends changing the equality act so that sex based exceptions would not apply where someone has a GRC. The current government have said they won't change the EA but governments only last a handful of years, after that all bets are off.

I'm sure I've had this exact exchange with you very recently, possibly on this thread

By the way, did you know that some christians consider 'damn' to be a really bad swear? I've met christians who consider it far worse than words like piss, shit, fuck, cunt, prick, tits or arse.

Well, I'm transphobic then, I even read TRA views initially

I frequently do. I like to hear their side, so I know how they're going to frame it.