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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Transphobia or truths?

999 replies

TwittleBee · 11/05/2018 22:08

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 16/05/2018 17:20

I agree with the others

That was a dick move daim

LangCleg · 16/05/2018 17:21

Yes, please!

ToeToToe · 16/05/2018 17:24

Was that to me, Lang?

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 16/05/2018 17:25

I honestly do not get why because a woman personally feels they'd love to strip off and get naked with any random bloke anywhere at any time with no worries for their own safety that every other woman should feel the same as they do or be made to because they're just stupid.

It's emotionally so immature it's alarming. Are they seriously so arrogant or just so empathically underdeveloped that they have no concept that other people have different feelings, different needs, different experiences? Who goes around hurling other people under the bus?

Do what you want. Strip off in front of whoever you want. Embrace gender neutral spaces, I'm genuinely happy for you. Be whoever you want to be. But don't fucking lobby for other women to lose those spaces because you personally (and currently) don't need them. Grow up for fucks sake, this is people's lives you're talking about.

LangCleg · 16/05/2018 17:28

Was that to me, Lang?

Yes - sorry, thread moved quicker than I typed!

ToeToToe · 16/05/2018 17:30

twitter.com/RadfemJana/status/995514704087928832

There you go. There's other stuff about it on her timeline too.

LangCleg · 16/05/2018 17:35

Thank you!

MIdgebabe · 16/05/2018 17:39

a liberal feminist is not someone who doesn't understand the difference between man and woman.

As a liberal feminist you might want a world where people experiance no discrimination, but whilst we have inequality in discrimination it would be rather foolish to remove positive and supportive discrimination from the group with less power...women... in the vague hope that suddenly then the negative discrimination will vanish.
Ergo sex separated spaces should remain

As a liberal feminist you might want the erasure of all gender stereotypes which you can't get through recognising gender as a first class concept.
Ergo in a clash of rights, sex is more important to protect than gender

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:15

As a liberal feminist on here my feelings are completely disregarded 'for my own good' but nobody can see the irony!

There is no irony as you are not negatively affected by single sex spaces. Quite simply it's a consent issue. If some women don't consent to their privacy being invaded by men, others should respect that. You don't get to decide whether I should be able to consent.

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:17

Anyone telling me in that condescending way that 'I'll get used to it' needs support with basic empathy and social skills. I am furious that young girls are being pressured and trained to not have bodily privacy or to be allowed to show or admit to discomfort at having to change in front of someone who is a biological boy because his feelings about his identity matter more than theirs.

YY.

thebewilderness · 16/05/2018 18:22

As a liberal feminist on here my feelings are completely disregarded 'for my own good' but nobody can see the irony!

Of course your feelings are disregarded, but not for your good.
Liberal feminists feelings are so antithetical to Feminism and women's rights that the very phrase liberal feminist is become an euphemism for MRA.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 16/05/2018 18:28

TERFragetteCity
If there is no reason to fear males, why do trans identifying males need to be in the woman's toilets? What in 'transitioning' makes a man stop behaving like a man and start behaving like a woman and when does this occur?
What a bizarre question!
What do you go there for?
I don't know any "trans identifying males", so I can't even guess at the answer to your question. I think Miranda Yardley might be one ... maybe you could ask him?
Personally, as a M-to-F transsexual, I go to public loos to pee, poo, and wash.

daimbars · 16/05/2018 18:29

other people have different feelings, different needs, different experiences? Who goes around hurling other people under the bus?

^

Exactly this. The law recognises trans women as women, at the moment they are legally allowed into sex segregated spaces ...

if they were born male I'm not comfortable

So you are saying these rights should be removed? Anyone born with male anatomy should not be recognised as female? The whole concept of being transgender should be completely disregarded to protect your feelings?

If so, please re-read your first statement.

There has to be an element of compromise for the sake of the thousands of trans people in this country - especially those who have already transitioned.

SewSwiftly · 16/05/2018 18:33

Nothing I've read here has so disgusted me than daim comparing the differences between men and women to the differences between black and white people. How can a rational adult say something like this?! It's racism and I feel sick to my stomach.

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:39

So you are saying these rights should be removed? Anyone born with male anatomy should not be recognised as female?

Trans identified males are not female. There is a stupid law in place which creates a legal fiction that a tiny minority (currently) of these male people who have been granted a certificate are treated for most purposes as if they are female. But they are not, and never will be.

daimbars · 16/05/2018 18:40

SewSwiftly how can you not see the transphobia here? This is a woman, a legal woman. To be 'uncomfortable' because they were born male is transphobia pure and simple.

I don't care if they're utterly lovely. It isn't relevant. if they were born male I am not comfortable

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:42

They are only a "legal woman" if they have a GRC. And only then because an ill thought out piece of legislation was passed as a fudge partly instead of granting same sex marriage. They're not actually women. That is a biological category of people which has a meaning.

SewSwiftly · 16/05/2018 18:43

Daim do you think a black woman is as physically different from you as a man?

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:43

It's amazing that you knew Sew was talking about a GRC holder! Mind reading is such a useful talent Smile

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 16/05/2018 18:47

Tinkletinklelittlebat
This change in law means I will have to stop using public toilets and changing rooms. It will drive me out of public spaces.
You are a prime example of how women are suffering as a result of the anti-trans propaganda.
Have you (or anyone else) ever been asked to produce your birth certificate in order to get into a public loo or changing room?
The proposed change in the law (which no-one has seen because it hasn't been drafted yet) won't make any difference at all to anyone's access to public toilets or changing rooms.
Nor will it legalise rape, sexual assault, any other kind of assault, or invasion of privacy.

daimbars · 16/05/2018 18:48

If they were born male neatly covers the whole lot. Simple transphobia.

If she'd said 'if they had a beard and were part of the TRA self ID brigade' I would have gone 'okay good point'

It's important to make the distinction.

SewSwiftly · 16/05/2018 18:49

I may cross post coz I've just come back without refreshing the page but daim, when you equate the differences between races as being as undeniable and significant as the difference between sexes, for a lot of poc you are bringing up cultural memories of centuries of pseudoscientific racism like phrenology used to justify barbarism and genocide. It sounds like something a slave trader would say.

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:49

If anyone is any doubt why we need to object to self ID in the strongest terms it is here. Look at Daim conflating the two, not acknowledging that there is any difference. Imagine allowing all TIMs to self ID to have a GRC. They can legally be called women and we can't challenge it. Then imagine they get our paltry Equality Act exemptions taken away, as be in absolutely no doubt will be next and is what they want. How do we row back from that?

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 18:51

It's important to make the distinction.

Funny how frequently you aren't.

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 16/05/2018 18:52

What Eresh says, you're straw manning again. You're pretending that the conversation is about removing the Equality Act/GRA/Current law. No. This is purely about self ID being a bloody stupid idea that destroys all protections for women. The fact that some organisations are acting 'ahead of the law' by removing the protections that the Equality Act provides for, is being widely questioned in its legality.

I was born female. Can I be a transwoman? Of course I can't because I wasn't born male. Transwomen are by necessity born male, it's the basis of their trans experience - why is it transphobic to say this please? Because it seems highly transphobic to me to erase the reality and struggle that comes from dysphoria.

If someone has male biology then how, objectively, is it any different for a woman to have to pee/change/whatever for a person with male biology who identifies as a woman inside and a person with male biology who identifies as a man inside? How is the woman supposed to feel different about the exact same experience and regulate her feelings and reactions solely based on that person's say so? Please tell me, I'd love to know.