Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

I may continue to comment more generally on the coercive patterns displayed in that poster's debating techniques but I have nothing to say directly to that poster that would not get deleted.

I suspect that may be the goal, Pencils, so don't take the bait, yeah?

or , whichever you prefer.

Well, we could always engage the magical "ignore poster" button

twitter.com/swear_trek/status/813776960774144000?lang=en

[lager]

Also for the non-boozers.

Just don't read. Skip over the posts.

I tend to do that with posters who post a massive wall of text too - often with lots of links to "prove them right" - this is a chat board, not a fucking lecture hall.

How I could resolve the situation you mentioned without having just never been there in the first place.. given the level of hostility, you seem to harbour (based on your words not towards me specifically).. I am not sure.*

Use the male facilities provided for you.
Never being there in the first place is what you are offering female women who do not choose to take their clothes off in front of strange males.

Anything with no paragraph breaks is just bad manners. Tsk tsk, etc.

Anyone who empathises with women and girls would surely think 'Aah yes, I can see I might appear to be a threat so I'll keep to my toilets and let them keep to theirs'.

I always find it instructive when male people feel entitled to dominate feminist spaces by using thousands upon thousands of words centring themselves and then get pissy when the responses fail to genuflect sufficiently. Such womanly behaviour,

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

We are Women Saying NO.

That's what's annoying them so much - we just will not shut up.

@TERFragetteCity - And what about little boys? Would these lecherous skeeves not do the exact same thing in the men’s showers? fairly certain that profiling based upon appearance rather than behaviour is known as discrimination.

What you are basically endorsing is passing privilege. The lucky few trans people who completely and undetectably pass can be in the women’s.. but no one else. I am not trying to be argumentative I’m just offering a counter point here.. would you truly expect a completely transitioned trans woman (outwardly, genital configuration unknown since we’re discussing loos) to walk in to the men’s? Passing provides safety and forcing them to use the men’s completely compromises that safety.

This whole argument about willies in the women’s showers is why I’ve not been on holiday or to a swimming pool in 2 years (even before transition because I was ambiguous and embarrassed at the looks I got in the men’s well before hormones)

A few people have stated that if a trans woman has had SRS/GRS/GCS/Self elected mutilation however you want to term it, then they would accept them due to the level of commitment to their transition. I’m interested to know how many agree with this.

Also in the current climate, what about the poor natal individuals who have been harassed out of the changing rooms or loos by the gender police? By refusing access to trans people, it is causing a climate where even natal men and women are being harassed because something about them is ‘uncommon’ enough to be seen as trans?

Women are sick of being forced against our will to explain why. Completely sick of it. Sick of being blamed for "causing a climate", sick of the whataboutrery, sick of it.

We have had enough. If that is all you are going to do here please go away.

I am not a TRA. Yes I’m trans, yes I believe I should be afforded privileges many feel I shouldn’t get but I’m also trying my best to take in the concerns.

Unfortunate choice of words there. Women only spaces aren't like male only golf clubs. They're not places we go to to shmooze and make deals. They're places our mothers and grandmothers fought for so that we could have a public life. So we could work, go out to the pub and theater etc.. It's problematic that you are framing this as a privilege you should be entitled to.

And what about little boys? Would these lecherous skeeves not do the exact same thing in the men’s showers?

What, display their penis in a place where no penises ought to be? The men's showers are a place where penises are to be expected, so no. Also you're basically suggesting that we should sacrifice little girls to keep little boys safe, which is awful.

Like Picasso said, women are rapidly running out of patience in terms of explaining for the millionth time why we don't want male individuals in spaces where we're going to be naked, or where girls are. The answer is no. No, we don't want you there. No, your presence is not welcome (other than perhaps to a few women like Rat, who're welcome to set up shared spaces for them and transwomen if they so desire, but who don't have the authority to opt the rest of us in without our consent). No, women not getting up in your face about it doesn't mean they're OK with it. No, we are not going to go round in endless circles while you try with all your might to find a crack to squeeze your way in through.

No more.

The women here are properly rocking right now. Male people need to step off, step back, and reevaluate their entitlement.

I don't think many women will want to engage with your post, NatLuc.

We want female spaces to remain female - for women and girls, (and even young boys when they are young enough to go in with their mother.) That really is all there is to it, for my part anyway. I'm sorry you feel this is a privilege - but we've fought for centuries for any rights at all. We'd quite like to keep the ones we gained. We weren't handed them on a plate.

Also in the current climate, what about the poor natal individuals who have been harassed out of the changing rooms or loos by the gender police? By refusing access to trans people, it is causing a climate where even natal men and women are being harassed because something about them is ‘uncommon’ enough to be seen as trans?

Earlier you said that you truly believed most women have no problems being in changing rooms with transwomen. Make up your mind.

It's not a privilege to be able to set boundaries, it's a basic human right that women have looooong been denied.

Anyone who claims it's a privilege women own is showing their arse.

If the genital configuration is unknown what is a completely transitioned transwoman? A male person who uses a female typical name who possibly has long hair, is probably wearing makeup, and who may be wearing a skirt or dress. May or may not have some breast development.

Other than the last part that describes plenty of men in alterna scenes (goth, emo, glam rock, etc) and they use the men's bathrooms. The fact that some men are violent towards other men who don't conform to gender stereotypes is not women's problem to solve, and does not mean that we should give up our right to privacy.

On the other hand it is a privilege to be given a carte blanche to violate the boundaries of all females, and to declare these people hateful and bigoted if they object to being forced to sleep in the same room as, be undressed in front of or touch intimately a male bodied person.

Thinking out loud here.

Why do TIM's want to post on a forum dedicated to women? Is it so they can tell their friends smugly they post here? Is it so they can feel validated at posting on a women's forum another space to invade Do they genuinely feel they can put their case over and we will all say how wrong we have been and accept all demands no bloody chance Or is there another reason?

I have read a ton of posts here from TIM's, we all probably have. Surely they see by all the threads we have real concerns. How could anyone with an ounce of humanity not see this? Or am I just expecting too much? I have daughters and granddaughters, women here have themselves, nieces, friends, all kinds of young girls in our lives. Hell, we all arrived in this world via a woman. Yet there is wall after wall of text full of whataboutery, violin playing, misogyny, sometimes almost a visceral hatred of women. Is it jealousy, is it just our views they hate?

For me and me alone I post my truth as I see it, I don't post transphobia, I don't buy into the changing gender crap and a AMAB will be assigned male at death in my view. Dig up the bones in 100 years and they will declare the skeleton of a male, not female. I will not be forced to use pronouns that are lies. Why should I?

Yes, a wall of text (sorry) just today has peeved me and I wanted to get my thoughts out. TL:DR I will not accept men as women - ever!