Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

We are not buying what Rat is selling.

I do not need to justify my appearance to anyone. Nor should anyone, regardless of gender identity or lack thereof.

Indeed, you do not. But I'm guessing, from your reference to vanity-sizing - you would be bigger, taller and stronger than me/most women - which could explain the women smiling, rather than challenging, in changing room. That's what a lot of women do - avoid confrontation with those taller and stronger than them.

what about females who also commit sex offences?

Why don't we worry about the 2%, rather than the 98%, you mean?

With the 98% being taller and stronger than the 2%?

Take a wild guess.

Is it not just better to turf out those that are behaving inappropriately? Especially seeing as that is the current system and from what I can tell, has worked pretty well up until this whole GRA stuff started.

How about you get changed in the male's and turf out men who behave inappropriately?

Is it not just better to turf out those that are behaving inappropriately?

If I were waiting outside a women's loo or changing room for someone (eg my step-mother or neice) and a man went to walk in, I would genuinely think they had just made an error. Just as I have stepped into men's loos by accident when preoccupied , squiffy or muddled by symbols and whatnot.
I might make a friendly comment, "I think that's the ladies loo" type thing not because I was acting as a gatekeeper or judged them dangerous.
I might envision though if I felt unable to say this, I could likely decide it better to go into the loo / changing room myself, given that in the example of my step-mother or niece I would (based on my age and professional experience) want to be present just in case there was an issue.
If I made a mistake, I would of course apologise profusely and this apology would be sincere.
Convention does act as a preventative factor when it comes to inappropriate behaviour.

@GladAllOver - I am just as against Self-ID as pretty much everyone in this thread (and probably most on MN?) but surely a sex pest is a sex pest. With or without a GRC.

Also any man can already claim they are trans and walk in the women's loos or changing rooms.

Even if some 'lad' wanted to have a laugh at women and trans women's expense, he is not going to spend near £200 (including cost of Deedpoll as I imagine even Self-ID will have some minimum requirements??) just to walk in and get screamed at an have shoes hurled at him to get out just to play the 'but I'm a woman' card.

@AngryAttackKittens - Because she said that women's clothing does not look good on male bodies because of the way they are cut. I am simply saying that I don't look ridiculous. Was meant as a light-hearted comment lol.

@Picassospaintbrush - I am glad you saw the humour in my comment :) I put some jeans on to go to the shops last night and realised how much these extra 4Kgs have added to my arse. Clearly, need to get mt running distance up to 10K hah!

@ToeToToe - I am a UK size 10. I only mention vanity sizing as there are certain brands I have to go up (or even down!!!) a size in.

I think that it is often forgotten about that trans woman can be just as small, weak and slow as natal woman.

Because in general it's not true. I mean sure, there are always outliers, but I've been to Thailand and every single khathoey I encountered was my height or taller (in most cases quite noticeably taller) than me, and I saw some of them get in the kickboxing ring with male tourists and absolutely wipe the floor with them. And that's a group of trans people who on average transition young and who ethnically speaking aren't going to have the genes for massive bulk anyway.

Why don't we worry about the 2%, rather than the 98%, you mean?

Well, because this isn't a feminist forum, didn't you know? This is the place you go to spout MRA rhetoric and get annoyed when women notice.

I am a person, not some drooling sex obsessed fiend.

Tell me how a 14 year old girl knows the difference?

(This is not a criticism, btw. Watching creepy German sex tourists get knocked flat on their arses by khathoey gave me great joy, and given how many end up in the sex industry I'm sure it was theraputic for them too.)

The FWR board does seem to be getting more than our share of TIM's, TRA and MRA's of late. The attempt to shut us up by closing this down is really telling.

The Midnight Misogynist seems to have gotten bored though, which is a shame as I was quite enjoying the recipes.

LOL. Yes, it's a few days now isn't it. I was enjoying all the different teas, a change from Earl Grey or summer fruits.

Meanwhile in Westminster:
Maria Miller hosting discussion about Girl Guides and challenging transphobia:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

The Midnight Misogynist seems to have gotten bored though, which is a shame as I was quite enjoying the recipes.

I also liked the recipes and being able to indulge my fish finger obsession.

But really - what's the difference in terms of feeling entitled to take up women's space and time with MRA talking points? By the time we're on but women are rapists too, I'm afraid I don't see a cigarette papersworth of difference.

This is the problem though... I could campaign until my lungs give out..

How about giving it a go for a bit then? Until you do I see people like you as basically hostile to women's interests. Campaign for a third space, and stop claiming to be exactly the same as women, with all that means for actual women. Stop claiming you face all the same issues. And stop telling women you know better than them how it feels to be gaslighted with the pronoun bollocks and made to lie against your own interests. This is all about power.

How about you get changed in the male's and turf out men who behave inappropriately?

YY. It's always got to be someone else's responsibility.

TIM's will never accept a third space - every. Using women's validates them and soothes their ruffled feelings. Never mind women's rights to privacy and dignity, validation and feeling trump those.

I am just as against Self-ID as pretty much everyone in this thread (and probably most on MN?) but surely a sex pest is a sex pest. With or without a GRC.

Thing is, a sex pest with a GRC has more legal power over others if they reveal his "gender change". In certain circumstances this can actually carry a prison sentence. It's a nice thing for the malicious to be able to hold over people and wait for them to slip up.

I am just as against Self-ID as pretty much everyone in this thread (and probably most on MN?) but surely a sex pest is a sex pest. With or without a GRC.

Thing is, a sex pest with a GRC has more legal power over others if they reveal his "gender change". In certain circumstances this can actually carry a prison sentence. It's a nice thing for the malicious to be able to hold over people and wait for them to slip up.

Does NatLuc really believe what NatLuc is writing? I can't be sure.

On the one hand, saying NatLuc is against self ID, and in the next post arguing that it won't make a difference.

It will - we know it will. Because policies are already being written in anticipation of selfID and under pressure form trans lobby groups, that say "women should be re-educated if they complain about a penis in the swimming pool showers" and suchlike. ManFriday was born from this.

So we go back to Posie's question - "Does my 11yr old daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis?"

My answer is YES - definitively, absolutely, no exceptions - YES.

Women and girls rights.

On the one hand, saying NatLuc is against self ID, and in the next post arguing that it won't make a difference.

Yes I find that quite a common position for trans identified males I have this conversation. The "we're all in this together - sisterhood" swiftly followed by "well it doesn't make any difference though really because the law is there already so maybe let's all drop it?"

It might not make much difference to you mate. You might benefit from it directly or indirectly. But it does to women. We won't.

The "we're all in this together" stuff is what The Gift Of Fear refers to as false teaming. It's a red flag, anyone doing that is trying to manipulate you.

Ooh good spot! Yes I remember now. Going to have to reread it in the light of all this.