Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

The ads are tedious. We know, yes, insurance, not again, please not again, oh there you go again and again and again.

Elle I think as well sometimes it's...

1. They don't notice; either through normal levels of self-absorption or simply not being particularly motivated to or adept at recognising anything remarkable about the other person.

I object! Meerkats are too adorable to be tedious

Well apart from those ones on the tv advert...they're fucking irritating!!

Not currently in the UK so haven't seen the ads and will therefore defer to your judgement.

(Meerkats are still adorable though.)

NatLuc What I said is not hateful. I even posted the link to a forum where you can go and look yourself. TIM's go on endlessly about masculine this and masculine that. Explain to me how saying a man is masculine is hateful? It is well known hormones do not make men look feminine due to bone structure and skull size.

spontaneousgiventime - it doesn't matter what you said. Any response that dares you to say that to someone's face (and take the consequences) is displaying abusive behaviour from the Duluth wheel. It's inexcusable and, moreover, women don't do it. You have nothing to justify to anyone, least of all people displaying that behaviour.

Rat

You are clearly a strong independent woman!

Some of us are a bit hyper alert when we are naked and have naked kids with us. I absolutely detest gender neutral swimming changing rooms for this reason. If I couldn’t have single sex changing I probably wouldn’t swim.

Natluc. It’s not really about you. We don’t need to fight here. It’s about equality of opportunity. Gender neutral changing removes that.

I’d campaign for a 3rd space for you. Or for me! I’m not bothered who uses it as long as there’s equality of opportunity for everyone

@HerFemaleness - This is the problem though... I could campaign until my lungs give out.. But the government is not going to force every business in every sex-segregated facility to create four sets of changing rooms/facilities..

Mens
Trans Mens
Womens
Trans Womens

0.5% of the population.. that means in London alone this only 43940 people (based on googling London population and it returning a 2016 figure).. Because the facilities would go mostly unused, they would end up being used as 'overflow' for men and women. And then we end up back in this situation.

How would you do it differently? (genuine question).

Is it not just better to turf out those that are behaving inappropriately? Especially seeing as that is the current system and from what I can tell, has worked pretty well up until this whole GRA stuff started.

I only transitioned in December so I only have so much experience.

LangCleg

The unfortunate effect of superimposing "female" onto a male body, is you simply emphasise the male body. It's largely counterproductive.

Women's clothes are designed for the female form. Women's trousers are a completely different cut to mens, they are not intended to make us look like men they are cut for women's bodies. You can't really drape a woman's pattern cut dress on a man's body very successfully. Arab and African robes and kaftans for men work really well as they area cut for a male body and look really flattering. Women's cuts won't flatter a male figure unless incredibly slight and petite.

Gender fluid men in the 70s and 80s got this and wore stuff that worked.

As a general rule, people who consider their right to override the consent and boundaries of women and girls should not go in spaces for women and girls. Simple.

Is it not just better to turf out those that are behaving inappropriately?

So we are collateral damage are we?

Some of us are a bit hyper alert when we are naked and have naked kids with us. I absolutely detest gender neutral swimming changing rooms for this reason. If I couldn’t have single sex changing I probably wouldn’t swim.

I absolutely understand how one might come to feel like that - and actually when I was heavily pregnant (the first time in particular) I remarked to my pregnancy yoga class how newly vulnerable I felt; that I might be less able now than previously to defend myself and equally that I might be newly fetishised. So I do have some insight although they thought I was a fainting damsel and couldn't relate at all

The problem I have (and I don't know how we overcome it) is something I remarked on another changing room thread; that it is not (I believe) the right or desirable or unavoidable way for women to live in society. It's not right that we do and it's not right that we should feel that way.

We're never going to be able to feel completely safe all of the time - not any of us, man, woman, whatever, because humans can be violent creatures. But there are some situations where women are more vulnerable than others; like in the home; in intimate relationships. We're actually not statistically more at risk of physical harm with strangers or acquaintances. So why should women have to live as if we were? But then that causes a conflict - some women are rightly still scared; others don't want to be treated as if they should be scared (which might in turn make them feel scared) because women shouldn't have to live in fear!

It's just so complicated.

And then there's the question of privacy, and it's the same bloody conundrum :(

@spontaneousgiventime - What I am trying to say is that 'it's not what you say but how you say it' applies to the typed word as well. Sweeping generalisations are dangerous.

@Elletorro - You are entirely right, there is no need to fight. There is also no need to dress thinly veiled hateful comments as 'but look at this site, it proves I am telling the truth'. It is cherry-picked examples that by no means describe the truth.

NatLuc Please, put your violin away, you've been seen for exactly what you are - without a photo!

A petition to request Shon Faye is not given a platform at Amnesty's "women making history" event - please sign and share

Natluc

People are providing evidence. Only 0.3% of men are convicted sex offenders and yet 20% or more women have been sexually assaulted.

We need to be alert to the exceptional cases as clearly they perpetrate a lot of assaults. We are hyper alert as a biological defence mechanism. Remember we are weaker, slower and smaller. Our best defence is to avoid danger in the first place.

It sucks that you get lumped in with dangerous individuals

But remember that’s what happens with all the nice men. We cannot trust strang men - a tiny number cause immense harm and there’s no way of distinguishing who they are

@Picassospaintbrush - I dunno I think I am pulling this summer dress off pretty well today?

I would say that Boohoo, Newlook, Asos and other popular vanity sized brands do pretty well from my money. Their stuff looks good on me so I wear it. Though beauty is subjective and I wouldn't feel comfortable offering photographic proof for people to pick apart and put me down over. And definitely, do not wish to end up on some 'Common examples of TIMs' website to be pulled out as examples of 'how NOT to be a tranny'. Plus I do not need to justify my appearance to anyone. Nor should anyone, regardless of gender identity or lack thereof.

Not sure what the contributions transwomen may make to the profit margins of ASOS etc has to do with anything...

Is it not just better to turf out those that are behaving inappropriately? Especially seeing as that is the current system and from what I can tell, has worked pretty well up until this whole GRA stuff started.

Until now, few men have tried to enter women's changing rooms because is was 100% clear that they were not allowed, and they knew they would be ejected without question.

If the law is changed to allow self ID, it will be open to any man to walk amongst women getting changed. Not just transwomen, but any man who fancies a laugh at women's expense. If challenged they will be be able to chant the magic word transphobiamus and get away with it.

As a general rule, people who consider their right to override the consent and boundaries of women and girls should not go in spaces for women and girls. Simple.

This.

I've been out all afternoon and coming back to the last few pages is grim. No, men don't experience what women do, even when they pretend to be women. It's just laughable, and the more they claim they do the more obviously gross it is.

Rat sounds like she's sincerely trying to talk women out of preserving women only spaces, because "we're not really safe anywhere." And "we're all being a bit silly, really, aren't we? You can't make everywhere safe! "

Which is ridiculous - we have various safeguarding procedures to make things as safe as possible.

The whole "you wouldn't have the audacity to say that to my face" thing sort of explains why the women smile at NatLuc in changing rooms. Because they don't have the "audacity" to challenge you. Because they don't want a confrontation or an argument, because they have no way of telling what your reaction would be. Women are taught to accommodate, and to persuade other women to do so too (as Rat is demonstrating nicely.)

Nope you don't have to justify your appearance to anyone. Years ago I used to like admiring red carpet dresses, bored to tears with them now, I Iike the women that wear a tux better, in fact I've always had a nice tux in my wardrobe.

I think my clothes look good on me until I catch a glimpse of my huge arse in a window and realise I look like a middle aged frump! So over it TBH.

If the law is changed to allow self ID, it will be open to any man to walk amongst women getting changed. Not just transwomen, but any man who fancies a laugh at women's expense. If challenged they will be be able to chant the magic word transphobiamus and get away with it.

Exactly.

@Elletorro - I agree about the need for an automatic defence mechanism. But we are not animals. We cannot be ruled by instinct. We have evolved past that. I am not disputing your stats, but what about females who also commit sex offences? I have no doubt that the percentage of the population is greatly smaller than that of men but they still exist and as you state it should not matter how small the number are, they are a threat and can do harm.

I think that it is often forgotten about that trans woman can be just as small, weak and slow as natal woman. This is what gets my back up. We are in an impossible situation. All of us together.

I personally oppose gender-neutral changing rooms. But the alternative that many on these forums feel I and those like me should 'suck it up' and do is even more unappealing. As @RatRolyPoly mentioned, it is a conundrum.