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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Transphobia or truths?

999 replies

TwittleBee · 11/05/2018 22:08

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

OP posts:

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spontaneousgiventime · 15/05/2018 19:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 19:06

I'm tempted to bulk order that book and give it to all the women I know, but that would be a fairly grim Xmas gift.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:06

So we go back to Posie's question - "Does my 11yr old daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis?"

And also, she has the right to get changed or shower without adult males seeing her naked.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:07

There are a few that I would unequivocally say are allies to women. Not many.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 19:07

The irony is that I've encountered more than one GNC man who I'd consider an ally, but part of the reason that's the case is that they're willing to admit that they're atypical men and not women.

RatRolyPoly · 15/05/2018 19:07

Rat sounds like she's sincerely trying to talk women out of preserving women only spaces, because "we're not really safe anywhere." And "we're all being a bit silly, really, aren't we? You can't make everywhere safe!

Well if that's how it sounds I will have to clarify, because that's not what I'm saying. Although I thought it was clear enough before.

I'm saying it does not serve women to reinforce in them a fear that they are weak and vulnerable (in comparison to men) in situations where they need not be afraid any more than any other member of the human race.

And I'm not talking about all women only spaces am I - clearly. I'm talking about the specific example of fearing violence in a changing room. I'm quite vocally for protective measures where women they are a proportionate measure in the face of a legitimate concern.

Who does it serve to legitimise a sense of fear in women in the public sphere where it is NOT proportionate?

Ask yourself that question and you'll see why I'm not jumping straight on your bandwagon without giving it a thorough interrogation.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:09

It's not all about physical safety Rat. The bar is not "not getting raped".

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:10

but part of the reason that's the case is that they're willing to admit that they're atypical men and not women.

That's it. That is necessary to have my trust.

RatRolyPoly · 15/05/2018 19:13

It's not all about physical safety Rat.

Ereshkigal I am responding specifically on the subject Elletorro raised of feeling a sense of physical vulnerability - a fear of suffering physical harm - from men in a public changing space.

I'm well aware that is not the only concern. But it is the concern I am currently addressing.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:15

Feeling physical vulnerability isn't just about the statistical chance you will be attacked.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:16

It's about feeling unsafe.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:16

Or feeling someone is giving you a bad feeling but there isn't anything you can do about it.

spontaneousgiventime · 15/05/2018 19:16

There are a few that I would unequivocally say are allies to women. Not many. I would have agreed a little while ago but no more. The TIM's who wrote the Guardian article wrote it to protect their own interests, not women's. I am 100% sceptical of 100% TIM's.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 19:17

Read the Gift of Fear. It's important to act on these feelings if you feel unsafe. They happen for a reason.

RatRolyPoly · 15/05/2018 19:22

It's important to act on these feelings if you feel unsafe.

Yes it is, I agree!

But it is also good to test the rationality of your fears in specific situations, to discuss them openly and to assess whether they are reasonable in that instance- particularly if you're asking those fears to be the basis of some policy.

ToeToToe · 15/05/2018 19:22

Rat - it's not just safety - there's privacy and dignity. Women fought for female only spaces for good reason - for multiple reasons. Stop trying to tell me I'm being irrational.

Rat - does my 10yr old daughter have the right to go into a changing room and not see an adult penis?

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 19:26

But it is also good to test the rationality of your fears in specific situations

It's been a while since I read it but I'm fairly certain The Gift Of Fear also discusses gaslighting.

Picassospaintbrush · 15/05/2018 19:30

It's relentless isn't it. Talking to someone with no boundaries about boundaries is a waste of time.

RatRolyPoly · 15/05/2018 19:32

Rat - it's not just safety - there's privacy and dignity.

Yes, I know, I said exactly that on my first post on the subject!

Stop deflecting from the points I'm making on one subject by saying that it is not the only subject to be covered - I know - and that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I've said on this one. It's "whataboutery"!!

Rat - does my 10yr old daughter have the right to go into a changing room and not see an adult penis?

Noone should be confronted by an unexpected and unavoidable penis.

ToeToToe · 15/05/2018 19:39

You've made no valuable points, Rat - just a load of waffle.

I want to keep female spaces female. ALL female spaces - because I want to protect women and girl's rights. I don't give one tiny shit about you trying to gaslight women that they don't matter, and waffling on about "legitimate" fear and crap like that. (Who judges what is "legimate". You?) Female spaces are for females.

ToeToToe · 15/05/2018 19:43

You know who else talks about this, and tries to make out that women's fears are not rational? Men who would abuse women.

RatRolyPoly · 15/05/2018 19:46

It's been a while since I read it but I'm fairly certain The Gift Of Fear also discusses gaslighting.

I really don't know why you're so keen to use the language of abuse to describe your discussions on this subject; if you could explain I'd be keen to hear?

Like most people around here I have been subject to gaslighting - actual gaslighting. Whilst I would never use the word about a chat I was having with someone on the internet (because, you know, a lot of the insidiousness and potency of gaslighting is in virtue of the intimacy of the relationship); whilst I wouldn't use the word myself, the closest I've come to feeling it was when someone joined a discussion to tell me how incomprehensible and of little value my posts were. On a subject i'm rather practiced in speaking on - publicly. They went quite some lengths to convince me my perception of reality - a reality I have every reason to be confident in - is wildly inaccurate, and that I'm a wooden-headed dunce.

Now, to me, that has a lot in common with gaslighting. I wouldn't call it such personally, mostly because coming from some random on the internet I'm not especially minded to believe them.

RatRolyPoly · 15/05/2018 19:48

You know who else talks about this, and tries to make out that women's fears are not rational? Men who would abuse women.

You know who else wants women to believe they are weak and feeble all the time, not just when our biological differences have a practical effect? Men who would abuse women.

There is a middle ground.

PencilsInSpace · 15/05/2018 19:50

It's relentless isn't it. Talking to someone with no boundaries about boundaries is a waste of time.

So much this. Not for the first time in this debate I am reminded of instances when a man has tried to nag, wheedle and cajole me into into sex I don't want.

No.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 19:52

"I know you are but what am I?" is a bit 2007, Rat. We all know who my comment was referring to, and we all know why I said it. Note that I'm not the only person making the same point.

I agree, Pencils - with some people "no" is really the only response that they deserve.

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