Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

@LangCleg - It surely can't be a discussion if the other side of the argument is not heard?

Otherwise, it is just an echo chamber.

If calling someone out on a clearly transphobic comment makes me audacious then yes, I dare to challenge someone. She was clearly jibing and targeting an entire group of individuals in a way that was simply not needed.

I'd have thought the bar for "audacious" was a bit higher than that, but apparently not.

Bloody MRA rhetoric on a feminist forum. I can't believe my eyes.

How dare you speak to a woman in a feminist forum like that?

People talk to each other in far more outlandish terms than that round here all the time.

And it what way is she barging into a feminist space? What is a "feminist space" in this context? You make it sound akin to a "safe space", but this is not that is it; this is just a subsection of a website where discussions relating to feminism can be centred, surely.

If NatLuc is engaging in discussions around the subject of feminism, or some part thereof, she's entitled to be here. Obviously she's not entitled to be welcomed, but you can't very well clasp your pearls at the fact she's here and inferred another poster's opinion to be held in "audacity".

Perhaps you don't understand why so many people are reacting to that particular phrase, Nat, so to make it clear - "audacity" used the way you used it there suggests that you're enraged by the very idea that women are refusing to do what you want them to, change their perception of you when instructed to do so, etc. It's a "how dare you?", and it's the mark of a person who expects to be able to impose their will on the group of people who they're addressing that way.

Women generally do not speak to other women that way. Your male socialization is coming across loud and clear, and at a rather higher volume than that of the average male human.

(If my DH ever spoke to a group of women like that he'd be getting an earful, but I very much doubt that he ever would, and he's certainly never done so as far as I'm aware. Nor has my dad.)

Glosswitch In The New Statesman,
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting

concludes:
"Like earlier attitudes towards gossips and hags, today’s attitudes towards Mumsnet mothers are a measure of how all mothers – and by extension all women – are perceived. By that, I don’t mean all women are Mumsnet mummies at heart, but that responses to those women provide a measure of what all women can get away with.

You might not wish to say or do any of the things the Mumsnet crowd do. The point is that you couldn’t without experiencing a succession of put-downs, misrepresentations, trivialisations and demonisations. This tells us something about the ongoing status of women’s discourse, and the way in which a woman’s credibility is undermined not by what she says, but by the context of her speech within female-dominated circles."

Bloody MRA rhetoric on a feminist forum. I can't believe my eyes.

Lang we know each other well enough by now; I don't for a second think your reaction here is genuine. Are you sure you don't just want NatLuc to go away? To the casual observer I imagine that would appear thinly veiled..

If calling someone out on a clearly transphobic comment makes me audacious

It's not you say potato, I say transphobic.

And you called spontaneous audacious, not the other way around. For expressing a feminist opinion on a website for women, no less.

This is a feminist space. You, a male person, basically just said to a woman come here and say that to my face - if you can't see what's wrong with that, I can't help you and the male socialisation you need to divest if you ever hope to be perceived as a woman. It's about more than cosmetic changes.

I'd say I probably know Lang at least as well as you do, Rat, and I'd be surprised if she wasn't genuinely pissed off by that comment.

I'd say I probably know Lang at least as well as you do, Rat, and I'd be surprised if she wasn't genuinely pissed off by that comment.

Totally agree, Lang is usually very calm and measured, I've never seen her get that angry.

It is interesting that Rat seems to be escalating from "let me tell you what you should think" to "let me tell you what you do think". Maybe she'll put these new psychic powers to good use and share some winning lottery numbers with the rest of us.

Perhaps you're right Angry.

Haha, x-post, that was to your previous post!

And to your recent post Angry, accusations of disingeniousness in this debate have been levied a lot, mostly be one side.

Those accusations have been used to shut down debate, because "you're being disingenuous and I will no longer engage with you".

Personally if I query someone's motives I'm all up for just asking them.

I'm not angry. I'm fucking furious. Enraged. And fucking disgusted that a male person feels sufficiently confident to use the language of DV on a feminist forum. Fucking furious.

And yet you didn't ask her, Rat, instead you told her that you knew she wasn't being sincere.

I have to say, the use of that kind of "you have the audacity (to defy me)" language gave me a pretty clear mental image, and it wasn't one that was flattering to the person saying it. "Looming over angrily while shouting" is pretty much where my brain went, because in my experience that's the behavior that usually goes along with that kind of language.

I said I didn't think she was being sincere.

But this taking apart my posts word by word is taking up too much airtime, surely?

Natluc

Nobody in real life says anything to you when you are in women’s spaces because

1. They don’t mind (Rat I think this is you)

1. They are scared.

I'd add

1. They have been following the news and suspect that complaining wouldn't do them any good, and would be more likely to result in them getting into some kind of trouble than you being removed.

bobbing up and down in the middle like a tedious meerkat ad break.

I object! Meerkats are too adorable to be tedious.

How I could resolve the situation you mentioned without having just never been there in the first place.. given the level of hostility, you seem to harbour (based on your words not towards me specifically).. I am not sure.

Campaign for spaces where you'll feel safe and which will meet your needs. The female only spaces you feel you have a right to be in were created by women who recognised that society was not equipped to accommodate women in public life. I would support you in your endeavors to create your own space but not to take away mine.

You're quite correct, I am very hostile to the idea of forcing all single sex provision to become unisex, most especially in spaces where women are naked and/or vulnerable.

And you called spontaneous audacious, not the other way around. For expressing a feminist opinion on a website for women, no less.

@LangCleg - So it is a commonly held feminist opinion that trans women coming out of surgery look more masculine than the average man on the streets and therefore those who have not had surgery and only been on hormones a short while would, therefore, be even more manly than that?

And even if it were statistically credible, you cannot see what is wrong with such a hateful view going unchallenged? Why should I not call someone out for trying to weaponise the 'stereotype' of the mental image of a trans woman when you are all supposedly so against stereotypes?