Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

Interesting posts to read through here!

New posts still make me understand that transphobia is used to silence women and that women are still set to be discriminated against because of their sex.

R0wantrees It's interesting isn't it. Doesn't want men to see them in underwear even though all share the same anatomy yet won't afford women the same courtesy.

From the Guardian article about the role of schools,

"While the Allsorts advice states that “trans pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity” and that in PE lessons, students “should be enabled to participate in the activity which corresponds to their gender identity if this is what they request”, Davies-Arai argues that shared changing rooms present difficulties for some girls. Few teenage girls will be willing to admit that they feel uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a biologically male student, she says.

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Person here is more obviously domineering than usual. Same complete contempt for feminist space, however.

I truly believe that most women have absolutely no problem being in the changing rooms with a trans woman

You think? I would be very unhappy seeing you in the changing room of my gym tbh. The cubicles are just off the open communal bit, you'd have to walk through a room of undressed women in order to get to them. I use the women's changing room so I won't be subject to the eyes of a male upon me while I'm changing. You think you have the right to take that away from me because you believe the only thing that makes one a woman is believing yourself to be one.

I sometimes take my young secondary school aged daughter with me to the gym, I'd be ever more unhappy to have an adult male in the changing room with a young girl just going through puberty. It would be highly inappropriate.

I know the response to this is that myself and my daughter should remove ourselves from public life if we're not happy to have our naked or partially dressed bodies exposed in the presence of a male. Fuck that shit.

@spontaneousgiventime - Men don't have developed tits.

As for 'me me me'. I do not have the authority to speak about others, I can make reference to certain things 'on the whole' but generally, I can only comment on my own experiences.

At least I do not go around making snide comments about the appearance of an incredibly marginalised and varied group of people. Would love you to meet me (not in a confrontational sense), having been on hormones for only 9 months and still with pre-op genitals and see if you have the audacity to maintain that opinion. It is unnecessary. Why be so hateful to people who on the whole have done you no harm when your real issue is with a noisy minority and with the government? Is there a London based Self-ID protect happening? I will gladly attend. So why jibe at the people that you want to be on your side? I have as much at stake as you do.

@ToeToToe - It makes me uncomfortable having to go into that detail. So I apologise if I have caused you discomfort. I only mentioned these things in a sense of clarity. I don't see any harm in making a point that I agree with points on a recent thread regarding swimming where male genitals shouldn't be exposed when using facilities that I have been allowed in based on mutual trust and compassion for the situation I am in. I should have mentioned I was referencing that thread, apologies.

I truly believe that most women have absolutely no problem being in the changing rooms with a trans woman (providing they are not a lech).

So, do the many women on this very site who've said otherwise just not count in general or have you decided that they're not women, somehow?

@HerFemaleness - I would never say that you and your young daughter should remove yourselves from public life.

When I joined the sports centre I specifically asked the reception staff what the centre policy was on trans members because I wanted to show consideration.

How I could resolve the situation you mentioned without having just never been there in the first place.. given the level of hostility, you seem to harbour (based on your words not towards me specifically).. I am not sure.

But again, people are just going to quote me and say 'yeah because you don't care about women'. Not true.

I can only comment on my own experiences.

I've spent a great deal of time in recent weeks considering and trying to imagine the experiences of others who may be affected by many of the issues discussed.
It bothers me that so much has been shaped by discussions online and social media power. This excludes swathes of the population who should have an equal stake.

@spontaneousgiventime - Nice to see you ignored the part in brackets about it being non-confrontational. But I guess painting me as a brute suits your narrative?

The center's policy does not necessarily tell you anything about what the women using the center want, how they feel about the policy, etc. The fact that policies about this are being imposed on women without any sort of consultation as to what we want is one of the reasons why this board is so busy and is gaining new commenters all the time.

NatLuc If I thought you were a brute I would say so, I'm not backwards in coming forward. Stop putting words in my mouth.

see if you have the audacity to maintain that opinion

WTAF? audacity? AUDACITY?

The only audacity I see here is barging into feminist space and making demands of women. Then, when they're not immediately met, using words like audacity.

How dare you speak to a woman in a feminist forum like that? How dare you?

@AngryAttackKittens - This is what confuses me. The attitude of women on MN is vastly different to what I experience in day to day life. Honestly.. it scares me! Not in the sense of for my safety, but in the sense of come and talk to me.. I am a person, not some drooling sex obsessed fiend.

LangCleg Thank you! If I had posted what came into my mind I would have violated TG and been banned. I've decided to calm down before I respond to that little gem.

Doesn't matter if you're the nicest person in the whole world, Nat, women on the whole still don't want male people in spaces where we're likely to be naked.

When I joined the sports centre I specifically asked the reception staff what the centre policy was on trans members because I wanted to show consideration.

I'm not questioning your intention to be considerate, but have you also considered how the policies of sports centres are created?

Concerns about SwimEngland's change of policy for example gave rise to #ManFriday.

The attitude of women on MN is vastly different to what I experience in day to day life.

Yes, you'll find quite a few women unwilling to openly challenge male people who consider it their right to override consent and boundaries. Wonder why that could be?

Men don't have developed tits.

There are thousands of them. Who do you think we are talking about?

Who knew that it was audacious to be able to tell male humans from female humans and not change your impression of which category a particular human falls into when firmly instructed to do so? I'd have thought the bar for "audacious" was a bit higher than that, but apparently not.