Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

The difference between identifying as a woman rather than with women is often striking.

PS If you make GRS (surgery) a requirement before someone can use a ladies' loo, how do you square that with the requirement that a diagnosed transsexual is required to undergo a "Real Life Test" lasting at least a year (often two) before they will be referred for surgery?

For instance, in the letter from my GIC to my GP confirming their diagnosis of Transsexualism, it says
* is required to live full-time as a woman for two years .

I have no definition of what "live as a woman" means (it wasn't me that wrote it!) but I am pretty certain that it doesn't mean following the male dress code at work, or getting changed and popping into the gents whenever I needed a pee!

You are still confused about sex and gender. The confusion is all yours.

I don't think she is; although perhaps there is another conflation at work here that is messing with everybody's head. And that is of gender "the externally imposed social construct" and gender used as shorthand for one's gender identity; the desire to align oneself with others playing a particular role within - or being treated a particular way by - society.

Picassospaintbrush
You write here as if we all know nothing,
Because that is the impression you choose to give.
you are miles behind the curve on this one.
and your own first-hand experience of life as a transsexual is... ?

R0wantrees
The difference between identifying as a woman rather than with women is often striking.
Every transsexual I have met (I'm guessing that might be more than you) identifies with women. It is a tiny minority of so-called "feminists" who try very hard to prevent us from doing so.

Putting feminists in inverted commas simply proves you are unable to accept the position we have.

I haven't invented a bogeyman. It's pathetic writing to people in terms like that.

I don't know what you are trying to achieve here. Trans lobbyists write pages and pages about why their condition makes them actual women. None of it works.
Read Muezza56 above, they get it.
Read medium.com/@snorwich0747/anomalies-3578f18087bf
Sophia gets it.

Honestly, you describing us as the bogeyman in the way you do, is not getting you anywhere.

the desire to align oneself with

I should rewrite this phrase to say "to feel oneself aligned with", otherwise it's misleading and offensive, probably

Every transsexual I have met (I'm guessing that might be more than you) identifies with women.

Yes, I've met many too. Gender critical feminists agree with this. You are saying exactly what the transsexuals that come to the so called anti trans meetings say, see Kristina Jayne Harrison, Debbie Hayton ans many more say.

You don't need to call us fear mongerers to make your point. They don't

Rat, don't explain my conversations to me.

I don't think it serves anyone to pit transwomen against one another Picasso; they are, like all of us, allowed to disagree with one another.

I'm sure someone could present the same to you in terms of other feminists disagreeing with you with a chipper little "why can't you be more like them?". I'm sure you wouldn't think a particularly legitimate statement.

I'm also surprised (but pleased) that you appear to agree so wholeheartedly with what I've seen of Muezza's posts and Sophia's blog. Because I am so far on the other side of the debate from you and yet I agree with a big chunk of what they both say too.

It makes me think that perhaps there might well be a middle ground out there somewhere.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2

A recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3222471-AIBU-to-be-extremely-proud-of-Justine-Roberts-Mumsnet-right-now

Rat, don't explain my conversations to me.

Sure, wouldn't dream of it.

Gaby Hisliff in The Guardian last week
'The Gender Recognition Act is controversial – can a path to common ground be found?'
In early 2016, the government proposed changes to the law regarding self-identification – there has been furious debate ever since. But could a more nuanced conversation between gender-critical feminists and trans activists now be starting?"
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/10/the-gender-recognition-act-is-controversial-can-a-path-to-common-ground-be-found

Living as a woman means - nobody giving a shit what you identify as

Well, quite. Nagging and bullying others to give a shit about how you identify is the least gender non-conforming thing I can imagine. Entirely gender conforming, actually. I'd say it was distinctly male behaviour.

When I hear a man who can't string a sentence together without swearing, I think he is rude, boorish, and probably ill-educated and of low intelligence. WhenI hear a woman swearing, I think exactly the same. It's only recently that I have come to see that some women choose to behave in this way because they think it makes them seem more "manly" or "less feminine"

I swear as i really enjoy it

Not boorish, ill-educated, of low intelligence, i dont feel it makes me manly or less feminine...especially as i pick and choose when to use it

I think it would be a very stupid move to judge someone or underestimate them on the basis of a few words...

Like it would be a stupid move for me to believe I understand you based on the posts you make

We're not conflating sex and gender, we are saying sex is important.

It's important because it's the material reality of our bodies. It's important because it's a protected characteristic in the equality act and we rely on that for our rights as women and girls.

Meanwhile nobody can even give a clear definition of what gender is (aside from the feminist understanding of sex-role stereotypes). It would be utterly foolish and dangerous to base laws on something so ill-defined and subjective.

incidentally, the inability to express oneself without swearing is not a gendered thing. When I hear a man who can't string a sentence together without swearing, I think he is rude, boorish, and probably ill-educated and of low intelligence. WhenI hear a woman swearing, I think exactly the same. It's only recently that I have come to see that some women choose to behave in this way because they think it makes them seem more "manly" or "less feminine"

Don't give a shit mate.

There is a world of difference between TS, TV, CD, and Drag. Oversimplified and possibly contentious:- Drag is a performance — TV has connotations of "transvestite fetishism" and is about sexual gratification — CD is a hobby — TS is a much more deep-seated condition in which one's sense of "self" — one's "brain sex" or "gender" does not match one's genitalia.

That's nice. Here they all are together under the trans umbrella. We didn't put them there. If you don't want to all be lumped in together, maybe have a word with Stonewall and any other trans org that's using the label 'trans' for so many disparate groups.

I suspect the main reason the government considered changing it was because they thought it might be a simple and cheap change that would make it look as though they had actually done something in response to the Select Committee report — considerably cheaper and simpler than actually doing anything that would make a real difference to TS people's lives.

Great. If you believe changing the GRA will make no difference anyway then it would clearly be best to leave it as it is. Why aren't you busy telling the politicians and pressure groups? Why are you instead wasting your time here, patronising us and policing our language?

Picassospaintbrush
Putting feminists in inverted commas simply proves you are unable to accept the position we have.
No, it is to distinguish those who use "feminism" as a cover for transphobia from those who regard feminism as a movement to support women.

I haven't invented a bogeyman. You probably aren't the one who invented the bogeyman, but you are certainly trying hard to keep the fear of him alive

I don't know what you are trying to achieve here. Naively, perhaps, I am trying to respond to the original post and have a civilised, fact-based discussion about the issues.

Picassospaintbrush
You are saying exactly what the transsexuals that come to the so called anti trans meetings say, see Kristina Jayne Harrison, Debbie Hayton ans many more say. Maybe that's because it's a valid point of view, shared by many (most?) of us.

You don't need to call us fear mongerers to make your point.
If you weren't, I wouldn't. But every time you (or others with broadly similar opinions) insinuate that transwomen are rapists, paedophiles, perverts or mentally ill, you are doing exactly that: you are stoking up fear amongst women who (possibly) know less about the subject than you do. And by doing so, you are doing untold and unmeasurable harm -- not just to the trans community, but also to women and girls who now go in fear of something that they have no reason to be afraid of.

LangCleg
Unsurprisingly then, the usual flounce and not an end to lordly pronouncements.
That's "Flounce" as in "going to work" (or bed or eat, or walk the dogs) or just "getting on with ordinary life")

R0wantrees
'The Gender Recognition Act is controversial – can a path to common ground be found?'
.... But could a more nuanced conversation between gender-critical feminists and trans activists now be starting?"
The only reason it is "controversial" is because it is being used as an excuse to incite fear and hatred of trans people. If people would stop trying to pretend that it would repeal all the legislation that already protects women and girls (as well as repealing a few other laws that don't even exist, such as the "bathroom bills" that we don't have!), then it would be seen for what it is: a simplification of an obscure administrative process.

JoanSummers
Living as a woman means
Living as a transwoman means

• nobody giving a shit what you identify as
• nobody wanting to hear your opinion, ever, on anything
• people saying offensive shit to you every day and everyone telling you to just be quiet and pretend it didn't happen
• people commenting on your body, clothes, manner, manners.. everything really, at every opportunity
• never ever getting a room of your own, and it being commonplace for you to be made to feel like an uncomfortable interloper in most public spaces
• struggling to be listened to and taken seriously by health care services
• waiting years to get a first appointment, and then going through years of "assessment"
• being taken for granted by political parties who make no effort to represent you and gloat when you're forced into non participation
• never feeling safe and being told it's your job to always be safe then blamed when you're not
• being everyone's dad and putting yourself last, and being told off if you aren't being kind or caring enough
• being forced to tolerate deliberate abuse and offensive name-calling even though it distresses and angers you, and sickens you down to your bones
• being accused of "not making an effort" if you wear jeans, a top, and trainers
• being accused of being "obsessed with clothes and make-up" if you make an effort

And a whole bunch more shit.

Looks like transwomen and ciswomen have quite a lot in common really!

spontaneousgiventime
Many of the women who post here are exceptionally well read in feminism, trans law, feminist history and trans people in general. They do this to ensure that they know what is going on, how it will effect women and then they share.
I don't think I ever suggested otherwise. But there seem to be some who equate "feminism" with "hating men" and whose "knowledge" of trans people comes straight out of the Daily Mail.
You think none of us know any trans people, that simply isn't true
No. That isn't true. I expect quite a few of you know at least one trans person -- even if it's only as the person stacking shelves in the supermarket, or driving a bus.

Living as a woman for two years, yes, what does that mean? I'm pretty sure when the rules were formulated it didn't mean given a free pass to access women's spaces with a penis.
If you were as well-read on the law as you claim to be, you would know that there is no law that prevents men from going into women's toilets or women into men's toilets (or changing rooms) and you would know that issues such as crisis centres and prison accommodation are (and probably always will be) subject to individual risk-assessment.
But I'm pretty sure that when the rules were formulated, it was not with the intention of setting up the Catch 22 situation in which you couldn't get GRS until you had already had GRS.

I've read trans forums for more hours than I will admit. I've no idea which ones you've been reading, but you must have found some pretty wierd ones. (maybe that's because that's what you were looking for?)
I've seen TIM's post photo's just after coming out of bottom surgery, they look more masculine than some men walking the street
I refuse to recognise the term "TIM". But I assume you are criticising a transwoman on the basis of her appearance. Isn't that one of the things that feminists have been fighting against?
I've read where these men grow breasts and then spend hours playing with them and getting aroused at being able to do so. Wanting to breastfeed a baby for purely self gratification, they don't care they are forcing an infant to imbibe a shit load of drugs to enable their fetish.
Are you sure you haven't been on the porn websites, created by cis-men for cis-men?

I for one have woken up to this cult and I will fight you every step of the way and so will thousands more. TRA say we are small, organised and vocal. They are wrong. We are growing daily, organised and vocal but when we shout we shout as one and with facts, not fantasy.
Yes, you are organised, vocal, and sucking more and more naive women into your cult. And you are deliberately misrepresenting facts and expert opinion to do so. Why you spend your time inciting so much hatred against a few, marginalised individuals who have done you no harm is quite beyond my comprehension.

*LangCleg Tue 15-May-18 12:11:29
Nagging and bullying others to give a shit about how you identify is the least gender non-conforming thing I can imagine. Entirely gender conforming, actually. I'd say it was distinctly male behaviour.
Clearly not "male behaviour", given the number of women that are Nagging and bullying others to give a shit about how they identify. (See spontaneousgiventime's post, above, for example)

OK. I've got to "flounce" off back to work now. Have fun while I'm away.

Oh, are we being berated for swearing now? Excellent stuff.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 No, I haven't been on any porn sites. All Information I post can be found here or here However, if you want to call them/view them as porn sites it says more about the community you are part of than anything I could say.

Oh, I should add, the reason I mentioned about TIM's coming out of bottom surgery looking more masculine than some men on the street, is to emphasise the point that even after years on oestrogen they still do not pass. That being the case, TIM's on oestrogen a shorter time are even less likely to pass in women's spaces. Photo's are on the forums I posted, check it out yourself.

"I will not use facilities where there are men that might see me in a state of undress but equally, I will not subject women to my naked (or partially naked) body."

What of the choices that the other women in the changing room can make?

When I hear a man who can't string a sentence together without swearing, I think he is rude, boorish, and probably ill-educated and of low intelligence.

Well, you might as well bring classism into it while you're at it, eh? What a charmer you are. The Duluth wheel does all this you know, using far fewer words.