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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transphobia or truths?

999 replies

TwittleBee · 11/05/2018 22:08

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

OP posts:
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16
R0wantrees · 14/05/2018 11:24

If gender is entirely a social;construct, then how come most adult male dogs lift their legs to pee, and most female dogs squat?

I do wonder (increasingly) if so much originates from a point when 'gender' was used euphemistically in the past instead of 'sex'.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 14/05/2018 11:26

PencilsInSpace
They took the time to attempt to discredit the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists on the basis of their written evidence, but they didn't listen to them. This is remarkable in itself, given that The Association numbers over a hundred members and comprises the overwhelming majority of all clinicians working in every Gender Identity Clinic in the British Isles.
But they didn't, did they? They merely pointed out that that one point (amongst many made by BAGIS) was contradicted by other organisations, with more direct expertise in respect of prisons. They did not "attempt to discredit" BAGIS when it was giving evidence that was not hearsay and not outside its sphere of expertise. On the contrary, they endorsed it, and included it in their conclusions -- but I can understand why you don't want to talk about the devastating consequences of transphobia.

Helen Mary Jones explained this very well when she spoke in Cardiff last month.
That would presumably be to one of those "discussions" at which only one side is allowed to participate.

this inquiry was biased as all fuck and if the recommendations were enacted it would mean further serious harm to women and girls.
If you can't make a point without swearing, it probably means that your point isn't strong enough to stand up on its own. In this case, that's clearly true: none of the recommendations will have any effect on women and girls, other than transwomen, transgirls (and transmen and transboys, if you choose to call them "women" too)

a fuck ton of male sex offenders who think they belong in the female estate.
Are you quite incapable of making any point without swearing?

This is based on the say-so of a notoriously transphobic website, whose "report" into prison inmates is directly contradicted by data from the people who actually run the prisons -- the Ministry of Justice.

Turns out that the propaganda "report" massively overstates the total number of trans prisoners, ignores the fact that most of them are transmen (what you would probably call TIFs "Trans Identifying Females), not transwomen, and wrongly assumes that all those held in any prison that houses sex offenders are necessarily sex offenders themselves.

Here's an independent review of the propaganda www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html, with links to the official data.

I really can't spare any more of my time debunking stuff that you must surely know is malicious propaganda, so I'm out of here now. I'm sorry if you don't have anything better to do than to make life a misery for people you've never even met, but I have a life to lead.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 14/05/2018 11:28

Ereshkigal - it was extremely funny. He was a tiny little dog, and he'd lift his back legs in the air and walk forward on his front paws like a circus performer. I used to have some video, but I don't know where I'd find it now. Smile

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 11:30

That would presumably be to one of those "discussions" at which only one side is allowed to participate.

There are no such discussions. Go along. Raise a question. You're free to do so. Most of the discussions have had trans speakers on the panel, such as WNTT Bristol last month and WPUK Basingstoke this Thursday.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 11:30

Dance Grin

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 11:33

If you can't make a point without swearing, it probably means that your point isn't strong enough to stand up on its own.

Lol, perhaps MN is not for you. We don't conform to gender (sex) stereotypes here. We can express ourselves however we like.

Picassospaintbrush · 14/05/2018 11:36

You had the silly dog argument with yourself.

LangCleg · 14/05/2018 11:38

I really can't spare any more of my time debunking stuff that you must surely know is malicious propaganda, so I'm out of here now. I'm sorry if you don't have anything better to do than to make life a misery for people you've never even met, but I have a life to lead.

Does this mean your lordly pronouncements and dog whistle wording are now at end? Or is it the usual flounce?

Either way, bye bye and have a blessed day.

LaSqrrl · 14/05/2018 11:39

Are you quite incapable of making any point without swearing?
For many of us, fuck no.
We don't bother conforming to the gender role of female, all ladylike and all.

I really can't spare any more of my time debunking stuff that you must surely know is malicious propaganda, so I'm out of here now.
Promise?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 14/05/2018 11:41

All medical communities make money from treating people. Why do you single out transgender medicine?

Errrmmm [confused* i think its because its a thread about 'transphobia'

There is a very interesting women and thyroid thread...in which they are discussing women, and thyroids

Picassospaintbrush · 14/05/2018 11:46

Any data or people or website they don't like is now always notoriously transphobic. The exaggeration is growing. Fuck them.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 14/05/2018 11:49

DancelikeEmmaGoldman
The way dogs pee is absolutely about their biological sex.
Umm, no, what you have just described is a gendered behaviour. Male dogs are perfectly capable of peeing by squatting — most do, until they become adult.
But most adult male dogs have an instinctive behaviour (scent-marking) that is due to what (in humans) we would call gender. No-one tells the male dog that he is male, or that he should pee on three legs... he just does knows.

This stuff goes far beyond the realms of O Level Biology: personally, I'd rather take the word of a consensus of experts.

Four separate specialist psychiatrists diagnosed me as transsexual — and that was after my GP thought it was worth referring me to them. It's real. And we are nothing like the caricatures you see on telly, or the bogeymen that so many of you are scaring each other with.

R0wantrees · 14/05/2018 11:50

Damnthatonestakentryanother2
Is the 'notoriously transphobic website' responsible for the 'propaganda' you are referring to fairplayforwomen.com ? I just want to be clear.

& when you say 'Here's an independent review of the propaganda' are you saying that Owl Fisher's piece in Voices ( 'our opinions and yours') is 'independent' or was in The Independent?

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 11:50

I'd read the twitter argument between "Owl" and Andrew Gilligan, actually, before you work out whose article has actually been debunked.

mobile.twitter.com/mragilligan/status/933810495215362048

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 14/05/2018 11:52

Picassospaintbrush
Any data or people or website they don't like is now always notoriously transphobic. The exaggeration is growing. Fuck them.

Thanks. I think you just proved that you can't make a point without lying and/or swearing, by doing both!

TERFragetteCity · 14/05/2018 11:52

Helen Mary Jones explained this very well when she spoke in Cardiff last month.
That would presumably be to one of those "discussions" at which only one side is allowed to participate

I think you mean those discussions where women and trans women speak and that ANY member of the public can go along to? Tickets are usually on Eventbrite which is fully accessible by anyone with the internet.

I really can't spare any more of my time debunking stuff that you must surely know is malicious propaganda, so I'm out of here now.
Of course you are...Wink

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 11:53

^Damnthatonestakentryanother2
Is the 'notoriously transphobic website' responsible for the 'propaganda' you are referring to <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=fairplayforwomen.com" target="_blank">https://fairplayforwomen.com ? I just want to be clear.^

Damn could also mean the Times when the story was published. I'm sure Damn also thinks that is a "notoriously transphobic website".

Picassospaintbrush · 14/05/2018 11:53

I have no need or desire to prove anything to you at all. None of us do.

Picassospaintbrush · 14/05/2018 11:58

Honestly, there's dog shite everywhere these days.

TERFragetteCity · 14/05/2018 12:01

Umm, no, what you have just described is a gendered behaviour. Male dogs are perfectly capable of peeing by squatting — most do, until they become adult.

So...you think male dogs pee by lifting their legs because they identify as male dogs? Or because it is taught to them by their male dog peers in order to fit in? I am really baffled by your argument so you really need to explain what your thinking is here.

Before you start, what IS your definition of 'gender'?

R0wantrees · 14/05/2018 12:03

I think it may be good for more people to consider how 'propaganda' works and the common techniques involved. I'm sure there are better qualified people here to discuss this but even a simple introduction can be enlightening:
people.howstuffworks.com/propaganda1.htm

spontaneousgiventime · 14/05/2018 12:20

Umm, no, what you have just described is a gendered behaviour. Male dogs are perfectly capable of peeing by squatting — most do, until they become adult.

I call BS. I have a boy dog, he had two sisters and lived with them and his mum until he was six weeks old then on the advice of the breeders vet came to us. He pee'd squatting until sexually mature then cocked his leg. Who do you suppose taught him that? My DH? He is old now and sometimes squats depending on how lazy he feels.

LangCleg · 14/05/2018 12:27

A propos of nothing: shit fuck piss wank cunt and bollocks.

R0wantrees · 14/05/2018 12:39

We have a male dog, squatted until sexual maturity and then started cocking his leg. He'll sometimes squat now but only in our garden, when tired and has a very full bladder.

Interesting stuff biology!

Picassospaintbrush · 14/05/2018 12:46

Well this is truly looking like definitive proof and a scientific breakthrough. Leg cocking in dogs is proof that women have penises. Fucking amazing.