Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

Thanks. I think you just proved that you can't make a point without lying and/or swearing, by doing both!

Actually she only swore.
You have just confirmed that the first part was true.

Propaganda Techniques
(basic)
From the previously mentioned people.howstuffworks.com/propaganda1.htm

"A commonly used technique is name-calling, which takes its cue from playground behavior. Often, this technique is utilized to divert attention when someone is trying to avoid answering a question or providing hard facts.

The bandwagon technique encourages the viewer or listener to join the crowd by aligning with the most popular, successful side of an issue

Glittering generalities are very common in political propaganda. Glittering generalities combine words that have positive connotations with a concept that is particularly beloved.

Card stacking is the presentation of only the details, statistics and other information that impacts public opinion positively. In other words, the bad stuff is left out entirely.

The plain folks technique is designed to get ordinary citizens to identify with a political candidate or other figure that they otherwise may have nothing in common with.

Propaganda based on fear is designed to scare people into choosing sides.

The transfer technique is more subliminal (operating on a subconscious rather than conscious level) than the other techniques we've discussed. Using this method, a group or person attempts to align themselves with a beloved symbol in an effort to transfer the status of the symbol to the cause they represent.

Many other propaganda methods exist, but they subsist on the same basic principles as the ones listed above: Manipulate the message to portray an issue or person in the most favorable light possible, and when necessary, make the opposing side look shabby in comparison.

Many people believe that propaganda does more harm than its proponents would admit to. Some go so far as to claim that propaganda is a bedfellow of censorship because they both serve as tools for repression, confusion and suppression of information"

Why do they do it?

Here's my personal belief on the subject.

I'm very happy to accept that a man might think he is a woman, and would very much prefer to be a woman.
I can fully understand that it must be awful to believe you are 'in the wrong body', and I can greatly sympathise with that distress.
But that man is still a man, not a woman.

If that man decides to change his appearance, have his male organs removed and have female hormone treatment, I will personally recognise his sincerity and determination and will be glad to call her a transwoman. I would accept her presence in women's changing rooms and toilets.

Any other man is still a man, not a woman

If that makes me transphobic in someone else's judgement then they can go off and do one, for all I care.

Oh my word! That is Pomeranian piss art. Amazing.

i agree, self ID could be a problem. most trans people like myself, have to go through a quite rigorous assessment, by qualified counsellors and psychiatrists to determine what level of dysphoria each individual is at, and whether they want simply hormonal treatment or up to full gender reassignment, and whether that each individual is fully aware of whatever their choice is the right choice to make. self ID is different, i have worked in both child care and mental health care, and self assessment by an individual, without any professional knowledgeable guidance, could indeed add a risk factor to vulnerable people, and therefore a background check and DBS are invaluable assets to protect vulnerable persons from those that would try to manipulate the system. and i understand the fears from men, as i suffered at the hands of my father, and suffered abuse and violence alot in the 1st 30 years of my life, all from men, who liked to pick fights with those of a passive nature. as for the trans community in general, most would be horrified to think that anyone would consider them to be potential perverts etc. my mother was a feminist, and i have always completely understood where she was coming from, and have shared her views on the misogynistic types in our society, who through their own ignorance, or fears, treat women as the weaker sex, seemingly based purely on physical ability. as for transphobia, yes it exists, but sometimes there are fears that an individual has based on personal experience, and there will always be proof to substantiate these fears, as we live in a violent world. it's not a divide between those born in the right body against those that weren't, the divide should be against the misogynistic types, who govern with their fists, and not with their intellect.

Great Post Muezza

I also enjoyed your post muezza. I agree broadly with the second half, and your final two sentences in particular.

The only difference between us would be that on your last sentence I would say....

"it's not a divide between those born in the right body against those that weren't, the divide should be against the system of patriarchy, which oppresses women and transwomen alike"

Giving all the pissing going on around here, I'm surprised no one has seen fit to mention hyaenas, and specifically female hyaenas and their peniform clitorises........

As regards dogs and the clever Pomeranian, I would have assumed that scent marking using urine is going to appear at sexual maturity. That the basic mechanics of the male and female urinary systems in dogs mean that males can scent mark higher (i.e. trees and posts, the typical objects males seem to approach) by cocking their leg. The pomeranian is, I would suspect, trying to piss as high as possible for such a little guy by doing the handstand. Although given the amount he marked, he is certainly demonstrating his prowess! One smelly little bugger to be sure. But makes perfect sense if animals that do scent mark make all efforts they can to mark as high as possible, hence enhancing perception of their own size.

Female and male cats spray, and in a similar fashion as I recall. Hyaeanas seem to use anal glands to scent-mark, rather than spray urine.

Just looks to me like different sex means different genitalia means slightly different behaviour, which is kind of proven by the rather interesting evolutionary journey of the hyaena, where giving birth through a peniform clitoris seems to be very risky for first-time mothers.

I'm quite prepared to accept that the same sort of people who buy testicular implants for their pets would also get distressed by the thought of their macho male dog squatting to pee (and isn't that in itself an insult to males in the US?).

i agree, the patriarchy historically, have always, at almost every opportunity, treated women as 'the weaker sex' and still do. even in the 21st century, something as simple as the pay gap, still rules supreme, where people are paid by there gender, rather than their ability, which to me has no logical foundation. so if you have 21 digits, then you're likely to get a better paid job, compared to those with just fingers and toes. this makes a mockery of the whole of society, or those that support this difference. sorry for going slightly 'off piste, but this pisses me off......

If that was really "all" then we would not be having this "discussion".

And if transwomen really were women then we wouldn't be having this discussion either.

If transwomen were women then there would be nothing to discuss or debate because we would simply exist as women and there would be nothing more to it.

I'm a transwoman and I really am beginning to accept that and accept that there is nothing wrong with that. We don't have to constantly insist that we are women. We don't have to pretend to be something we're not and we don't have to force other people to pretend we're something we're not.

We are not women. We are transwomen and that is completely okay.

OrderMeAnotherCurry There really is nothing wrong with being a TIM, no-one should ever feel there is. TIM's are men and should leave women's spaces alone. Wear whatever you want to, clothes, make-up jewellery, heels. I have no problem with that at all. My issue is when men want to invade my spaces and denigrate my sex.

There really is nothing wrong with being a TIM, no-one should ever feel there is.

Exactly.

This is why it baffles me when people insist that transwomen are women and claim anyone who disagrees is transphobic. Do these people think being trans is something to be ashamed of and to be avoided at all costs?

IMO it is more transphobic (and I really am beginning to hate the word because it's thrown about so freely these days) to insist we are women.

Insisting we are women erases our history and struggles too.

@Damnthatonestakentryanother2 When gender critical feminists talk about being a woman we only mean a biological woman. We don't mean the gender identity that defines itself as woman ie femininity. We don't think of that as being part of what it is to be a woman. I'm guessing that for you woman includes the identity that calls itself woman ie femininity. For gender critical feminists that identity is a collection of norms that we find very unhelpful. We will celebrate gender non conformity (including presenting in the opposite way to how society expects of your sex) all day long but defining woman as femininity makes it hard to talk about our experience of biology-based oppression and harder to fight for a collective resistance of gender norms and socialisation. When a gender critical feminist says you are not a woman she us saying you are not a biological woman. Equally if you define yourself as a woman because you have feminine traits/outlook/desires etc. you are using a definition we don't fit into and are actively trying to resist. So when we say "you are not a woman" you perhaps hear us denying who you feel you really are. If someone says to us that a person without female biology is a woman because they identify as woman they are telling us that our fight is over. We will never be free of the shackles of femininity because femininity is all womanhood is, at least, all that is important.

As you may have noticed, people on here are often not very feminine.

Great post Sarah.

As you may have noticed, people on here are often not very feminine.

Especially when we are being non-compliant and sweary fuckers about it!

I agree with you and have also lurked on their forums.

Ereshkigal I've spent more hours reading them then I would care to admit. I began because I did genuinely want to understand dysphoria. I learned much, much more and can't find the words to describe it all. Dysphoria is still a mystery to me.

Yes I totally know the kind of things you are referring to. So much of it is about sex. This is constantly denied, but it's obvious.

i to joined a few forums, the local one to my area, was normal everyday stuff. the big global one scared the hell out of me as well. and you are completely right, there is a lot of weird stuff out there, so of the messages that some people tried to send me, were disgusting, and there are also a large proportion of fetishists on that site. thankfully, most seemed to be from the usa, and there were men pretending to be women, in the sense they'd wait until you friended them, as they used some random innocent photo on their profile, then once friended, reveal their true identity.then there is the british media and television, that specially select people to be on their shows, and to try and gain more viewers, get in the drama queens. as a trans person myself, i am truly horrified at the stuff out there, and completely understand why non trans people are confused and frightened by what they see and hear. although i am going to undergo reassignment surgery, i am no longer in any trans sites or groups, i just meet up with everyday people from all walks of life. i am 61, and i do believe Political Correctness has gone mad, and i have to say something, as my mother was a feminist. and my 19 year old daughter still calls me dad, because i am her dad. just because my brain gender is feminine, it doesn't deny my past, and although i was a househusband for the first 15 years of my daughters life, doesn't make me a biological woman, i understand this. on the positive side, there are a lot of genuine down to earth folk in the trans community, who are paying a price, me for example, have no contact with my 3 brothers, none even contacted me last year when i had major heart surgery, but today, i'm off to see my sister. and my daughter is living at my place again, with her boyfriend, and some of my nieces call me auntie Jem. and personally i'm not into frills, more bohemian hippy chic chique. one thing to add, we are all different individuals on this planet, and for me personally, i see myself as being born with one digit to many, the same as if i'd been born with 5 fingers on each hand, i'd want the extra one removed...

Muezza56 - That's a good analogy!

Apologies ini advance that this is such a long post, but there is a whole load of stuff going on here, some of which seems to be based on the conflation of sex and gender, some based on the conflation of transvestite, cross-dresser, and transsexual, and some based on a confusion about the possible changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

The conflation of sex and gender strikes me as very odd. For decades, feminists have insisted that the two are quite separate — that women should not be "defined by their biology":
Most people ordinarily seem to think that sex and gender are coextensive: women are human females, men are human males. Many feminists have historically disagreed and have endorsed the sex/ gender distinction. (Feminist perspectives on sex and gender: plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-gender/)
A very small minority of feminists now seem surprisingly keen to overturn the progress that has been made in that respect, apparently because conflating sex and gender is crucial to their anti-trans stance.

incidentally, the inability to express oneself without swearing is not a gendered thing. When I hear a man who can't string a sentence together without swearing, I think he is rude, boorish, and probably ill-educated and of low intelligence. WhenI hear a woman swearing, I think exactly the same. It's only recently that I have come to see that some women choose to behave in this way because they think it makes them seem more "manly" or "less feminine"

There is a world of difference between TS, TV, CD, and Drag. Oversimplified and possibly contentious:- Drag is a performance — TV has connotations of "transvestite fetishism" and is about sexual gratification — CD is a hobby — TS is a much more deep-seated condition in which one's sense of "self" — one's "brain sex" or "gender" does not match one's genitalia. (plenty of medical and legal definitions around if you care to look: World Health Organisation official definition is ^Transsexualism
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex^. Actually getting that diagnosis, and subsequent access to treatment is a long and drawn out process: I got from GP to surgeon in three years, but that seems to be extremely unusual: most people take considerably longer. For many (including me) the process of self-acceptance, and recognising that one actually needs medical help takes very much longer. For me, it was about 50 year.

The current Gender Recognition Act allows someone to change their legal status from male to female or vice versa. I've done it. The cost was a drop in the ocean compared with 200 hours of facial electrolysis, and I didn't find it a particularly complex process. But some people do. I suspect the main reason the government considered changing it was because they thought it might be a simple and cheap change that would make it look as though they had actually done something in response to the Select Committee report — considerably cheaper and simpler than actually doing anything that would make a real difference to TS people's lives.

Simplifying the process makes no difference to the outcome. I have never been asked to produce any kind of ID in order to get into a public loo, or changing room. If I were ever sentenced to prison, I would — even now — be accommodated in a male prison if I were considered a risk to other prisoners. I can't comment on rape or domestic violence centres, other than to wonder whether they routinely demand that a woman has to produce her birth certificate before she is allowed to access their services. I suspect that the answer is "no".

It seems extremely unlikely that anyone other than a TS would want to acquire a GRC. It conveys no advantage to a CD or TV, but would require some tricky explanation (to put it mildly) to their family, employer, banks, taxman, DVLA, and doctor!)

So far as I am aware, changing the administration of Gender Recognition Certificates will have no effect whatsoever on the existing legislation relating to discrimination, domestic violence, rape, or anything else. And the governing bodies of sports will still be able to make heir own rules regarding things such as hormone levels, height, weight, and age limits... and sex. Transsexuals have been around for nearly a century, but they do not dominate the record books. Where they do make the news, it is often because outdated rules force transmen and transboys to compete as women or girls rather than vice versa
e.g. Beggs asked to wrestle in the boys’ division but the rules for Texas public high schools require athletes to compete under the gender on their birth certificate. ( www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title )

I understand the fears expressed by so many women and girls. But I remain convinced that although the fears are genuine, what they are afraid of is false: it is a bogeyman invented by a tiny minority — for some mysterious purpose that I can only guess at. Meanwhile, trans people have a genuine fear of the demonstrable harm that is being done to them by the anti-trans alliance of alt-right, religious fundamentalists, and a minority of "feminists" who are trying to remove the limited protection we have against discrimination and access to even basic healthcare. ( www.engage.england.nhs.uk/survey/gender-identity-services-for-adults/user_uploads/report-independent-analysis-consultation-responses-gender-identity-service-specifications.pdf )

You are still confused about sex and gender. The confusion is all yours.

TRAs use this feminism going backwards line. It makes no sense at all.

You write here as if we all know nothing, you are miles behind the curve on this one.