How would you actually implement bathrooms separated by sex?

[blackandredarrow]

I'm actually curious about this. I'm defining sex as the most common combinations of chromosomes and gonads.

How would you enforce that only people with a particular combination uses a particular bathroom? In the case of intersex people, or transgender people who pass well?

Secondary sex characteristics are the usual giveaway. Tone of voice etc.

There is no way to say.
If a trans woman passes well, I wouldn't know they are transgender.
If thry do really awful, I wouldn't know they aren't a man.

Shouldn't people from the same sex who are a nuisance be challenged?

I suspect that a considerable amount of trans women have secondary sex characteristics, including voice, that one would judge of a woman's.

But the point is, isn't appearance a morally questionable criteria? People have limited control over it

The set of transgender women who pass as non-transgender women is not empty. Furthermore, this judgment depends considerably on the observer

Again, some transgender women pass all those. And it considerably depends on the observer. There is also the issue of the users of these bathrooms policing one another's appearance being morally questionable

Individual observations are mostly irrelevant. Last Saturday, for example, I saw two drunk women dancing on the ground, in thr toilets

Ive never encoutered awoman being a nuisance in the loos.

Passing isnt relevant. We know transwomen are male, its about affording respect to a stranger whom is also being respectful.

However, what is important here is to remember loos are a strawman argument.

I may not know the person in the next cubicle is male, we if we have to share areas such as changing rooms, or anywhere with comminal sleeping areas such as hospital wards, refuges, homeless shelters, were going to be undressing.

Women and girls do not have to defend our right not to undress in front of men

I might take things too strictly.

By definition, you will only notice as trans trans women who don't pass. You can't really say whether a person who passes as a woman is trans or not, at least not by external visual cues alone

So you are saying trans women shouldn't enter these spaces by their own decision, right? But that there is no infalible way of policing thise

Consider my first sentence changed as you prescribed. What then?

By definition, you will only notice as trans trans women who don't pass. You can't really say whether a person who passes as a woman is trans or not, at least not by external visual cues alone

Showing that individual observations are often contradictory was an example of their irrelevance.

Could you quote some of my individual observations?

I think the only issue is with people who are actively making others uncomfortable. For example if I saw someone in a womans toilet who was dressed in a traditionally masculine manner and physically looked like a man and who was just stood loitering for ages I would question it!
If I saw someone in traditional womens clothing who just looked a bit physically masculine but was just minding their own business I would not question it... ditto if I saw someone dressed in a traditionally masculine manner actually.
Id only question someone who looked completely like a man AND was acting strangely in some way.

Then I didn't understand

80% of TiMs retain their penis.

Do you really think we dont notice?