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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .

802 replies

R0wantrees · 08/05/2018 17:11

Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".
Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues...

"The letter is published in full below and has been signed by dozens of prominent transgender and non-binary activists and campaigners - and allies - alike, including Fox Fisher, Owl, Stephanie Hirst, Juno Roche, Travis Alabanza, Kate Llewellyn, Jack Monroe and India Willoughby."

www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

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busyboysmum · 09/05/2018 09:17

Who was that Ash person? Are they trans gender as well? Couldn't place them.

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 09:17

Sarah Ditum's comment via Twitter:

"Amazing that that debate happened at all, so wheels not spinning off till halfway is an achievement.

  • Trans activists don't want to talk about men who'll abuse self-ID
  • "They'll rape you anyway" is a bad argument
  • & trans activists are stunningly chill about sterilising kids"

twitter.com/sarahditum/status/993988706599096321

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TrumpTrump · 09/05/2018 09:29

Cathy Newman has a first from Oxford, she must be quite smart. But yeah, I've been disappointed in her recently. Sad

Writersblock2 · 09/05/2018 09:31

The more I think on it, the more I get out of what I saw (in a way that will motivate me to keep fighting).

The way Munroe spoke to GG was disgusting - completely dismissing her because she "didn't know what she thought" when it was in fact Newman who was in the wrong (but she was on side, right? So of course she was believed).

Like @theaveragewife I hadn't realised why I utterly despised Mrs Browns Boys, but it's painfully clear now that it's because it makes a complete mockery of women.

The whole show was skewed towards the trans side, and very clearly tried to make women out to be bigots instead of having real issues. Making it all about the bathrooms was also a sly move.

Also wondered why they bothered with an audience when they refused to let them speak. It was deliberately goading and designed to make them look like a bunch of loons too.

AncientLights · 09/05/2018 09:43

We aren't the only. Found this:

uk.news.yahoo.com/c4-apos-genderquake-debate-slammed. Can't make the link live.

merrymouse · 09/05/2018 09:50

The whole thing sounds a bit like Kilroy. C4 are probably congratulating themselves for balanced programming because everyone hated it.

Baroquehavoc · 09/05/2018 10:00

Transactivists let the underdog facade slip just a little too soon. They should have got UK law under their belts first. Trouble is now, when they succeed in hushing us, and dominating the debate, and getting the police to investigate, the UK naturally gravitates to the underdog. It's not them right now. I don't think they can get it back either.

I didn't watch the program, so I can't comment on that. But I agree with Pratchet for their campaign in general. So many of the visible transgender people in the media are anything but the underdog, and the tactics they use are agressive, disproportionate and target women. People can see this, even if they aren't allowed to talk about it.

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 10:02

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/09/make-all-public-toilets-gender-neutral-says-germaine-greer-on-c4

Review of debate with focus on:

  1. Gender neutral loos
  2. Behaviour of audience
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AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/05/2018 10:05

That was piss poor. The panel was not balanced, too much crap about the massive red herring that is bloody bathrooms and even on that subject everyone shouted over Sarah Ditum.

CJ was given a bizarre opportunity to muse on answers and give amusing little anectodotes, like she was being interviewed on Letterman. Munroe was completely out of order for demanding that a woman be removed for shouting. I felt a real sense of danger in the room after that comment. I though Sarah Ditum did a good job on the transing of kids issue. I think GG has lost it frankly, but she is 80.

The only GC women who were allowed to speak were GG and Sarah D and even then they were talked over, interrupted and cut short repeatedly for 'breaks'.

Cathy Newman at the end lecturing women was a disgrace. For all the years I have been watching politcal debates, I have never seen a host lecture members of the audience in this way. It was simply a STFU to women. Disgraceful.

I always rated Cathy Newman, although she didn't cover herself in glory with that Jordan Peterson interview, but I am very disappointed with this

MipMipMip · 09/05/2018 10:12

Of course it was Emma. Sorry, was late when I couldn't think.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/05/2018 10:21

twitter.com/SatiriaNews/status/994116151755067394

TheClitterati · 09/05/2018 10:41

I was surprised to see an article saying GG was saying we should have unisex toilets and sex divided toilets were ridiculous.

This seems very biased towards the men, and gives little thought to women and children and their safety. Or are womens groups now pushing for gender neutral loos too? I feel like I've missed something?

KayM2 · 09/05/2018 10:44

I've been working through it. The problem, for me, was that the heavyweights, the people with a thought through and consistent case, were those on the " there is no such thing as a gender identity" side ( SD said that in passing) and the pro transgender side were much less consistent and convincing. In argument. Them being who they are might be taken as a powerful argument that there IS such a thing as innate gender identity. The superficially convincing but fallacious argument that this is all about children being expected to conform to silly gendered pink/ blue toys and clothes, causing parents and kids to think that they must be " trans" if they don't, is not the overall explanation. Though I am sure that in some cases this happens. The young people who presented in a variety of gender identities may well change their personal explanations of them selves in the future. Who knows? SD and GG will not change their minds; so this " debate" was largely like a University Professor debating with a 1st Year student. The professor argues better, but sometimes from a knowledge base of 40 + years ago. I thought it was a frustrating affair.

MargeH · 09/05/2018 10:46

I was surprised to see an article saying GG was saying we should have unisex toilets and sex divided toilets were ridiculous.

If you're a 5'11" woman, I guess you might be less fearful than if you are 5'1"

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 10:50

I was surprised to see an article saying GG was saying we should have unisex toilets and sex divided toilets were ridiculous.

I think GG comments were more in the context of national differences of attitude both to sex and toilets, although it does of course then overlap with the concerns re self-id etc.

GG's earlier comments had framed her experience specifically with regards Australian masculinity.

There's some info here about national perspectives:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet

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TwittleBee · 09/05/2018 11:07

Late to the party here! Just read the letter and then seen this post.
I couldn't help write a response letter to the Trans Letter to Channel 4. Has anyone else done this yet? Just a shame women haven't got strong and well funded media outlet to drive our response!

I was surprised to see an article saying GG was saying we should have unisex toilets and sex divided toilets were ridiculous.

I think until there is complete safety, equality and understanding (and removal of the taboo) surrounding menstruation then unisex toilets are a certain no for me! But then we have now also found ourselves back on the "red herring" (as AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth put it) subject that is toilets in this debate!

MonsoonMama · 09/05/2018 11:25

Totally agree with all the comments that the whole things was a debacle. However, I do think the heckling from the audience was a poor move and has done us absolutely no favours.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/05/2018 11:34

Honestly Mama I understand your point, but it was massively biased. Are we just to sit there like good little girls? And what of the shouting - are we as a group to be punished for this insubordination. Fuck that. I'm not shutting up. It's very easy to forget that women did not have freedom in the same way as men until very recently. I'm not going backwards without a fight.

Scabbersley · 09/05/2018 11:35

just as others must respect their right to describe themselves as ‘freaky alien children’, so they must respect the right of others to roll their eyes and mutter, ‘Bloody students'

Grin
R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 11:39

Posie Parker's account of the debate (from her Twitter thread)

"I met up with #manfriday, Sarah Ditum & Rose of Dawn. Germaine Greer sat next to me & was delightful! When we got into the studio I was given my place to sit. As I looked around it dawned on me that not only the panel was biased but also the audience.

Women who don't think women have penises were in the minority. I was privy to Newman's script... CAITLIN it read, CAITLIN, CAITLIN.... It wasn't a gender debate after all it was the Caitlin- so boring that his male sense of self importance can't be masked- Jenner show.

What happened was an acute lesson in women being put in their place, Newman allowed Ditum to be constantly interrupted, even when in mid sentence and yet told Sarah to allow Munroe to speak even when he'd interrupted her in the first place.

From the off Ditum was disadvantaged as her chair wasn't part of the group but set back a little, so anytime shew wanted to talk she had to push herself to the edge of her chair. Ash-Girls in India die because they wear skirts-Libfem moron was too irritating to tweet about

The two born females consisting of "I hated wearing skirts" and "every time I go food shopping I wet myself because toilets are upsetting" were routinely ignored, decorative pots in the Green house of Trans ideological knotweed aka men. The whole program was to indoctrinate.

The audience are supposed to think "trans women are the most oppressed women" a little tricky to believe when your view is blocked by a very tall millionaire who literally got away with killing someone. Not too oppressed from where I was sitting.

Manroe talked about the mortality rate of trans women being aged 35, these statistics are as idiotic as they sound. He also had a really hard time with women speaking and calling out, perhaps if the program makers hadn't been so biased there would have been no need.

I was told I would be asked a question, but I think it was just a lie to get feminists in the audience. I am told Gendered Intelligence or GIRES did diversity training with the ITN teams a couple of weeks ago, is this true @iankatz1000 Overall the debate was shocking.

Sarah should be proud of herself, watching it back she was articulate and clear and anyone could see she was treated with disdain and y'know like a woman. Newman proved that she's unprofessional and peculiar about women, I'm glad @jordanbpeterson wiped the floor with her.

PS.Germaine was blindsided and gaslit by Newman, she has never been on the Victoria Derbyshire show.

And @cathynewman told people to engage, the heckling was asked for....it was a set up."

twitter.com/ThePosieParker/status/994151978585542657

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MonsoonMama · 09/05/2018 11:55

I understand the frustration with the whole thing, I was seething in front of my TV believe me, but the heckling has just given them more material that they can point to to justify their nasty TERF/victim narrative. They're milking it on Twitter.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/05/2018 11:57

Anyone on twitter please support @Olivia4Hersham as she is getting full on rape and death threats for speaking out last night.

And the witch hunt to have her kicked out of the Green party too, being spearheaded by shon faye

twitter.com/shonfaye/status/994148365234556928

Seriously fucking outrageous

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/05/2018 11:58

Witch hunt in progress

twitter.com/search?q=%40Olivia4Hersham&src=typd

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 12:00

Huffpost's article:
"Channel 4 is facing criticism after a live debate, which was part of its ‘Genderquake’ series, saw panellists Munroe Bergdorf and Caitlyn Jenner heckled with transphobic abuse...
...However, viewers quickly grew uncomfortable when members of the audience began shouting transphobic comments during the debate, and when Munroe called for them to be removed by security, her request was ignored."

(interesting to see which twitter accounts feature in the article)
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/genderquake-the-debate-munroe-bergdorf-transphobic_uk_5af2ab48e4b0a0d601e7e995

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