Amnesty international, women's rights and shon Faye

[Amalfimamma]

Here you are ladies. Read and weep, or laugh

I don't agree on an individual, personal level that there is a need to have children. I don't agree on an individual, personal level there is a "right" to have children beyond that the state should not legislate to prevent people having children in the way I cited.

I don't however think the "right" to have children extends to expecting unlimited health resources being made available and/or any other route being available with no restrictions. I'm not hugely keen on altruistic surrogacy and if it were up to me I would restrict it to family members.

Lass is now a TERF for using the P word in a way that had nothing to do with the T word. Whether she likes it or not.

I think that's it!

When people who're mostly on the other side of the gender debate are being censored because the mods are worried about TRAs getting angry even when nothing to do with trans issues was being discussed maybe it's time to take the finger off the delete button, eh?

I hope that most counties have laws that preclude forced surrogacy!

Well that depends on how you define "voluntary" and "forced". The UK permits altruistic surrogacy but bans paid surrogacy. How willing is a desperately poor surrogate?

Funny i was just going to ask what AIs postion om paid surrogacy was.

Funny how the only time its acceptable to monetise humsn organs is when they are the female ones.

Deleting Lass? Chuffin 'eck, that's deeply confusing.

Lass has been deleted?!

Good grief, we're reaching a point where even Mary Berry and Mother Theresa need to prepare to be told off.

Is everyone being nice? Properly nice?

Well that depends on how you define "voluntary" and "forced". The UK permits altruistic surrogacy but bans paid surrogacy. How willing is a desperately poor surrogate?

I'd have thought the ethics would be broadly similar to live organ donation.

(OT but I wouldn't hold mother Theresa up as an example of sweet uncontroversial womanhood....)

Thanks @SophieLMumsnet

Are MNHQ reviewing their "moderation by Twitter" policy yet?

Thanks all. If my post was deleted because it was potentially defamatory of Amnesty , then so be it . I can see it could have been screenshotted out of context.

However there was nothing transphobic about it nor was there any criticism of Shon Faye.

Anything could be screenshotted out of context.

Sexual desire and activity are a fundamental human need,” -

I understand how sexual activity is a fundamental human need in the respect of reproduction but sexual desire? Not so much. As an asexual person who has never experienced sexual desire I absolutely do not think of it as a 'need' at all. I didn't need that desire to reproduce Oh the erasure Amnesty!

Framing sexual intercourse for the purpose of reproduction as a "need" and therefore heading into a "right" needs to be very carefully explained and disclaimed.

There is no right for people to be provided with other people to make babies with, if they can't find someone to do it willingly.

Globally surrogacy has exactly the same issues as prostituion IMO, in the UK the commercial side is reduced as only "costs" can be paid, I think it's recently been banned full stop in ?a scandinavian country, the issues with rich people going to poor countries and paying women to be incubators is really disturbing.

So when talking about the right to family life / the right to have children it's about the state not intefering with letting people get on with having babies, and it's not about everyone having the right to have their own genetic baby full stop.

Interestingly, there was forced pregnancy in Romania under Caecescu (sp) - where would this fall under the human rights stuff? Back to reprodctive rights I suppose.

Framing anything that involves using someone elses body whether for sex or carrying a baby as a "need" and then onto a "right" is dangerous and of course mainly for women.

There can surely never be a 'right' to use anyone else's body other than in a freely consensual way.

All adults should have the right to consensual sex. Not an absolute right to have sex, but a right not to be prevented from consensual sex because of any characteristic (race, religion, sexuality, disability, anything else?).

Similar sort of thing with reproduction.

The production of human resources is viewed as a social need so naturally men will want to take control of the means of production. Us.

Well yes , but Amnesty would say they agree with you re concensual sex. Amnesty's line is that consent can be bought. After all , all empoyees, tradespeople, service providers only provide their labour because they get paid to do so, so what is the difference?

The inside of a body is not a workplace.

Do you think prostitution would pass a health and safety at work inspection?

@SardineReturns excellent post at "Mon 07-May-18 20:03:54"

Prostitution is not 'sex work'.

logosjournal.com/2014/watson/

Shame on Amnesty, I used to be a supporter but I am horrified that they want to protect men's rights to 'use' prostituted women.

But I am glad Mumsnet is not exploding!

So far I've told Amnesty off and told the Red Cross off so I have spare donation cash I want to drop on some unsuspecting charity. Female run, female focused, no prostitute-using employee, not encouraging selling people's bodies charities please.

I work for a non-profit and travel a lot for work and you know what? I've managed never to buy the inside of another humans body for my pleasure. Not once. It's possible.

The production of human resources is viewed as a social need so naturally men will want to take control of the means of production. Us.

Exactly - when I woke up to the fact I was the equivalent of the black maid to a white slave master, I nearly died with shock - because that is what the matrix is based upon - the exploitation of women and girls' labour, in many guises, all over the planet.

Amnesty is just another agent, run by guys, that enables it.

I agree the only charities worth donating to are those run by women offering services to only women

Female run, female focused, no prostitute-using employee, not encouraging selling people's bodies charities please.

Just giving another shout out about www.spaceintl.org, as supported by Julie Bindel.

"SPACE is an international organisation, formed to give voice to women who have survived the abusive reality of prostitution.

SPACE stands for ‘Survivors of Prostitution Abuse Calling for Enlightenment’. We call for enlightenment because before we can expect social change, prostitution must be recognised for the abuse that it is."