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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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535 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/05/2018 11:08

Have just grassed you up for banning them @MNHQ

They said "Mumsnet you left us no choice"

I think you are supposed to hang your heads in shame Grin

Mumsnet Grass Account
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PencilsInSpace · 06/05/2018 21:36

Why on earth are you here on your day off Kate?

Why aren't @MNHQ employing sufficient staff to cover weekends and nights?

Why aren't they investing in training so the mod team have the skills to deal with threats from other social media platforms?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 06/05/2018 21:36

Yes i agree lang

If you don't know (and I appreciate that sometimes you know exactly why you were deleted) why you were deleted

Or why something that was ok to say yesterday or on another board is wrong

Then how are you supposed to change (if you want to)

I don't envy MNHQ at the moment...ive had to stick a load of caveats in a basic post as people are so, rightly, twitchy

SeaWitchly · 06/05/2018 21:39

It's nothing personal. You are a business and this should have been sorted a long time ago.

I am sorry Kate but personally I agree with Fairenuff on this.

And it is not the fault of the MN users that you have had to work on your day off... that is an issue to take up with your employer Justine.

spontaneousgiventime · 06/05/2018 21:42

I also wonder if an edit button might help? I know I've posted something then had to add a follow up correction as when I've read it back it didn't convey what I was trying to say. Even a time limited edit button would be better than none.

thebewilderness · 06/05/2018 21:47

Calling us unprofessional really is a dig that cannot but be taken personally by individual mods, so it would be great if we could avoid that if possible from now on.

May i respectfully suggest that doubling down on the behavior that is being pointed out is about as unprofessional as it is possible to be,KateMumsnet?

thebewilderness · 06/05/2018 21:49

Edit buttons are a notorious tool for abusers to claim they did not say what you said they said. Though the ones with a countdown timer seem to work rather well.

Weezol · 06/05/2018 22:00

Agree totally with thebewildnerness, edit buttons of any kind are catnip to trolls, narcs and goady fuckers.

spontaneousgiventime · 06/05/2018 22:05

thebewilderness I didn't think of that. I'm just trying to think of anything that could help both us and the mods to make moderating easier and fairer.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 06/05/2018 22:08

I think the Mods are cocking up a lot at the moment because they have been put under a lot of pressure from all sides.

The decision-making has been a series of spasmodic reactions since the erasure squad arrived and hope they are seeking external support (women-centred mind) because extreme stress impairs thinking.

TheUterati · 06/05/2018 22:10

I'm with @Fairenuff on this one.

Frankly, if you don't want to be accused of being unprofessional, then run a professional set up.

If you don't want to have posters 'testing the boundaries', then don't have the egregious deletion 'policy' it seems that you appear to have. And don't mistake fury at being censored for stating facts with some childish wish to test the boundaries.

And yes, if this has been a succession of crap moderating decisions, then you need to examine those rather than lashing out at us.

thebewilderness · 06/05/2018 22:10

The recent experience here is the sort of thing that reveals the professionalism level of the employees at any business.
I hope MN management is able to learn from the experience.

PencilsInSpace · 06/05/2018 22:12

I'm just trying to think of anything that could help both us and the mods to make moderating easier and fairer.

  1. more mods to cover all hours and days
  2. more training
  3. tell twitter to fuck right off - politely but in no uncertain terms
TheUterati · 06/05/2018 22:13

And please don;t forget quite how much slack many posters cut MNHQ and the mods.

Apologies for making more work.
Appreciating how hard things are.
Effusive thanks.
Gin, flowers and cake.

We cut you a lot of slack, show a lot of appreciation, show a great deal of understanding, give the benefit of the doubt. Far beyond that which is displayed to Twitter or Facebook or any of these other platforms.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 06/05/2018 22:14

Also the slightly sing-songy ameliorative tone of MN moderation which I think might be part of their core values, strains a bit against the call for gravity in situations like this - being in a bit of a war zone - as though the mods hands are tied and they can't come out and say. "Emma is a little wanker" or "keep your hair on mumsnetters we are up to our necks in shit and we don't need you stepping on our heads".

spontaneousgiventime · 06/05/2018 22:16

PencilsInSpace Definitely agree with getting rid of moderation by Twitter. There has to be enough mods to cover all the boards all the time. Remember the pub kicking out time trolls? YES training so all moderation decisions are fair and logical. This would help and stop posters being annoyed at the anomalies we have now.

leyat · 06/05/2018 22:19

Agree re edit buttons being a bad idea.

Re MNHQ, it is very welcome that @katemumsnet has indicated that they will be getting back to us with a clarification re their guidelines. They seem to be pro-free speech on the boards except for what they find to be objectively harmful/wrong, i.e. they clearly think that talking about specific kids is wrong regardless of whether what is being discussed is what they and their families have already put out in the public domain. Even if you disagree, that is understandable. But deleting posts that 'misgender' is wrong, because that is taking a political stance: It is absolutely crucial, in order for MN to allow feminism on its boards, that MN do not have policies that prohibit free speech as it relates to gender politics. Allowing people to 'gender' based both on trans ideology and on gender critical ideology is the way you allow everyone to express their gender politics on the board. Also, many trans people base their pronouns on their sex, so MN should also be clear that despite what TA's aggressively insist is the case, this who pronoun/gendering thing isn't actually a point of contention between trans ppl vs feminists, it's two different forms of gender politics that is in opposition here. Both 'sides' in this believe the way the other understands gender to be harmful to them, and of course I would certainly argue that only feminists have the valid argument. But the point is, we should all get to express our gender politics, that is free speech. Trans ppl cisgendering me is very offensive and also misogyny, but MN won't be deleting posts where women are referred to as cis or cisgender. And it should be the same with regards to those trans people who feel that sex based pronouns are offensive; as free adults we get to debate these ideas, what we don't get to do is expect that others will just submit to them. And if terms like cis is allowed, then MNHQ cannot justify disallowing sex based pronouns, that is not treating users equally.

So I really hope @MNHQ decides not to take a position on gender politics in order to acquiesce to what is essentially bullying. There is no way that sex based pronouns is objectively wrong, so there is no way to defend deleting posts for this reason.

Lastly, as someone with ADHD, I have a lot of difficulty remembering in the moment to treat reality other than it is, so I would find it very difficult to use pronouns that aren't based on sex on an ongoing basis. It's easy to remember when that is the topic of conversation, but not when it isn't. These kinds of demands are very ableist in addition to everything else, and MNHQ will hopefully consider this too.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 06/05/2018 22:22

I think they need a crisis mode.

Things will go back to normal again I'm sure. My feeling is that the cat is out of the bag re trans issues and there is going to be a gradual reinstatement of women's rights probably with a lot of embarrassment of having gone against one's instincts and better judgement in order to seem open-minded and inclusive - a bit like the people who were suckered in by PIE.

However the MRAs, the sex buyers, the paedos and other perverts don't go away, and they will find a new way to attack, so MN will need to go into crisis mode again.

So I think it is worth looking beyond the current situation for a longer term view.

Nothing2SeeHere · 06/05/2018 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

spontaneousgiventime · 06/05/2018 22:26

Nothing2SeeHere Nothing to ask, just keep going add more posts, you're #peaktransing people with every post.

Must be odd posting on MN is it Helen?

PencilsInSpace · 06/05/2018 22:26

Yes. Why are you posting here when you are suspended?

TheUterati · 06/05/2018 22:26

@Nothing. No. No questions to put to you at all.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 06/05/2018 22:29

Apart from what pencils asked, I don't know why you wouldn't think that your actions speak loud enough Nothing2SeeHere.

We get you.

thebewilderness · 06/05/2018 22:31

Here is a nice trollhouse cookie for you N2SH Biscuit

OrchidInTheSun · 06/05/2018 22:32

No Nothing. I'm not remotely interested in you.

Juzza12 · 06/05/2018 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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