Mumsnet Grass Account

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Have just grassed you up for banning them @MNHQ

They said "Mumsnet you left us no choice"

I think you are supposed to hang your heads in shame

@TheUterati I couldn't care less of mine end up on Twitter, MN is an open forum anyway. They did screenshot one of mine but it's still up here. There are more important hills to die on.

Our view here is that, while we cannot control the decisions of others to intrusively discuss individual children's genitals off board, we can and must control it on Mumsnet

I just posted this on another thread but after thought I agree with this. Just because Susie Green and Jazz Jennings's parents think it is right to publicise the most intimate details of their child's life doesn't mean it is right. By repeating these details we are implicitly condoning their release in the first place, we should be respecting the privacy of these poor children even if their parents won't.

If SG were posting on this thread and talking about her child's op (which she has, extensively), would that be allowed?

I'd hope it would be deleted immediately, in the same way that Id hope that any thread where an adult gives details of how to bypass UK law in order to take a child abroad for genital surgery would be.

As Uterati says, they are simply expanding the reach of quite sensible words which echo what many people think about this issue. Because they are out of touch in their echo chamber they don't grasp this.

Hi Helen and your alter ego MNT. Hope you've both had a lovely afternoon. Funny how after a while of not posting on either accounts, both suddenly post, yet your little note says you don't run the account. I think you need to be a bit more savvy once this account crashes and burns like the other two. #wegotyou

George Osbourne is a dick head because he's a dickhead, he also made horrible cuts which disadvantaged many groups, he's white, he's a he, he straight and privately educate. Insult the cheeky fuck to the moon and back.

The average TRA is not in the same position so calling them a dickhead is game for deletion...an exception to this I would say is Caitlyn Jenner, she is such an obvious dickhead that it's bloody obvious im not calling her a dickhead because she's trans I'm calling her a dickhead because she just is, like George Osbourne just is.

The average TRA is not in the same position so calling them a dickhead is game for deletion...an exception to this I would say is Caitlyn Jenner, she is such an obvious dickhead that it's bloody obvious im not calling her a dickhead because she's trans I'm calling her a dickhead because she just is, like George Osbourne just is.

That's not really fair. If someone feels any public figure is a dickhead because they just are they should be able to say. Caitlyn Jenner is trans and so is Shon Faye. You should be able to call either a dickhead, or neither.

OnTheList - without putting words into MNHQ's mouth, I suspect that if George Osbourne got in touch with MN and asked for the posts calling him a dickhead to be taken down, they probably would. It's just most people in the public eye are sensible enough to realise that it's part and parcel of being a public figure (provided that the comments stay in the realm of gentle ribbing rather than threats or vicious abuse). And you look like a dickhead bleating on about people not being allowed to call you a dickhead. Or a dicksplash. Or a twatbadger. Or a massive tit.

^^ I was careful to achieve gender parity of terms used

For me it's a balancing act of power, position, status and history. Oh and the truth from your or mine perspective. im not overly familiar with Shon Faye so can't comment on their dickhead status from my perspective nor if it would be appropriate to talk about her as I simply do not know.

I don't think there's really a right not to be called a dickhead except if you meet some arbitrary definition.

Arbitrary as in a choice, whim or individual judgement not actual right - yes. MNHQ has its own code of conduct and it makes sense that common decency comes in to that.

The Equality act also comes in to it, if someone is disabled, black, woman or trans it needs to be clear your calling someone a dickhead because they are a dickhead not because they come under a group and you don't like that group.

I've never typed dickhead so much

It's easier to call Caitlyn Jenner a dickhead because she's so privileged, annoying, right winged, nasty to her exes publicly and currently engaged to someone her daughters age which is cringe.

Now LM is tricky because she's so young so lacks history that can be judged by adult standards, also LM has MH problems and is vulnerable due to stigma surrounding that. Doesnt mean she's a top class person but it does make it in poorer taste to insult her....in my opinion anyway!

The Equality act also comes in to it, if someone is disabled, black, woman or trans it needs to be clear your calling someone a dickhead because they are a dickhead not because they come under a group and you don't like that group.

How are you supposed to know? It is arbitrary. And no one gives a fuck about anyone insulting women.

Good luck making a claim of misogyny.

How are you suppose to know if someone is in a minority or discriminated against group? Sometimes you can see so its provable sometimes the individual says so and its provable ie diagnosis and in cases of religious discrimination their baptised or something.

Yup no one gives a fuck about insulting women or harming women because wider society has no problem with it...no indivdual protected group under the equalities act is the driving force for the hatred against women so it would be seen as unfair to single out a group, in this case TRAs and singularly point the finger at them because its not just them. There is a #waronwomen

@OrchidInTheSun

You know *@katemumsnet* one thing that is very unclear is what the guidelines actually are. And how the mods apply them. There has been some massively inconsistent modding over the course of the last few days. On Friday, there were loads of deletions. Yesterday, loads of stuff that would have been deleted on Friday was allowed to stand. Today, the decision seems to have been reversed.

Can you tell us - and your fellow mods - what the rules actually are?

Listen, could everyone remember that it's pretty depressing to be sneered at/shouted at on a regular basis, and try to just lay off the goadyness towards the mod team? They do a phenomenal job in circumstances which are exceptionally challenging and complex, where they have to take minutely graded decisions which balance competing responsibilities on a minute by minute basis - thinking not only of our on guidelines but the context in which things are said. Honestly, the digs really do make us all feel rotten, and this board is really the only place where that happens quite relentlessly.

@Orchidinthesun, we've actually mentioned the fact that we are working on more concrete guidelines several times very recently, and in fact about 20 posts up I did so again:
"I think we've said a few times that we're thinking hard here about clarifying how the talk guidelines apply in practice on this general topic, and we're going to come back soon with more detail. We want to get it right, so we're keen not to rush it. "

I really don't agree that the moderation is all over the shop - decisions which appear to diverge almost always do so because the contexts are quite different, or because some particular phrase which is okay in certain circs has been weaponised and or used to goad, sensationalise, or deliberately inflame in another.

Reluctantly, though, we're realising that moderating flexibly for context and nuance is neither popular - as seen in the post I've quoted above - nor effective, in that people haven't really self-moderated in the way that we'd hoped. So as I said, we're thinking very carefully about how we can make more generic guidelines that will probably be less flexible and more black and white, but hopefully will be clearer and make the moderation of this board less challenging.

I'm ducking out now, thanks all.

If SG were posting on this thread and talking about her child's op (which she has, extensively), would that be allowed?

I'd hope it would be deleted immediately, in the same way that Id hope that any thread where an adult gives details of how to bypass UK law in order to take a child abroad for genital surgery would be.

That's a fair point ItsAll, and I think I agree with it.

@KateMumsnet rock and a hard place for mods at the mo feel free to hire me though and I'll write the guidelines for feminism chat

Listen, could everyone remember that it's pretty depressing to be sneered at/shouted at on a regular basis, and try to just lay off the goadyness towards the mod team? They do a phenomenal job in circumstances which are exceptionally challenging and complex, where they have to take minutely graded decisions which balance competing responsibilities on a minute by minute basis - thinking not only of our on guidelines but the context in which things are said. Honestly, the digs really do make us all feel rotten, and this board is really the only place where that happens quite relentlessly.

While I appreciate it's not nice to feel bashed, it's much less nice to be deleted by MNHQ for and thus assessed as being a "transphobe". Especially when all you have done is state scientific facts like having a penis makes you male.

And the reason you get it worst on this board is because this is the ONLY board that you are taking a ridiculous line on. Which is why people are so upset and annoyed by HQ's position here.

@SonicVersusGynaephobia

* And the reason you get it worst on this board is because this is the ONLY board that you are taking a ridiculous line on. Which is why people are so upset and annoyed by HQ's position here.

Well, it's been pretty relentless for about three years, Sonic. It could be that we've been making one crap decision after another for that length of time, yes . Or that we've been trying really really hard to find a middle ground where we can continue to allow people to express their views (one of the few places to try to do so) on a controversial and incredibly difficult topic, where one person's fact is another's hate speech.

@KateMumsnet - It was not, and never is, my intention to make the MN mods feel shit or undermined. I can imagine you're being absolutely flooded by malicious reports at the moment which must be overwhelming and exhausting. I missed your post saying that you were intending to clarify your guidelines and I look forward to those which I hope allow us to continue the respectful dialogue we're good at.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you and the other mods that there is a concerted effort from some people to shut down our conversation. I do appreciate this is a difficult time but if MNHQ capitulates, it will be utterly catastrophic for free speech and giving women a voice. You gave them an inch with allowing reporting on twitter and they took a mile. Please do the right thing for your long-standing posters and continue to allow women a space where we can debate and discuss the issues that affect us freely and without censorship.

Thanks :)

Listen, could everyone remember that it's pretty depressing to be sneered at/shouted at on a regular basis, and try to just lay off the goadyness towards the mod team? They do a phenomenal job in circumstances which are exceptionally challenging and complex, where they have to take minutely graded decisions which balance competing responsibilities on a minute by minute basis - thinking not only of our on guidelines but the context in which things are said.

You need to be more professional. Get your house in order. Decide on your guidelines, be clear and enforce them. There's no point making a big stance about free speech if you're not prepared to back it.

You are making life hard for yourself by being wishy washy about what you actually want, who you represent and how you want to present your brand.

Be clear.

And if you are prepared to be brave, then do it.

But stop fannying around with us.

Hey hey hey MN is doing their best, I'm sure we can all believe it's tricky right now.

Call out the men that hurt women not the forum that's trying it's best under extreme scrutiny.

The thing is, Orchid - it's actually not the vexatious reports that are making life difficult - there are not that many of those and it's very clear when it happens. What makes things tough is the relentless pushing of the line by posters to see where the edges are.

And inevitably, a proportion of those posts end up on Twitter, making us look pretty awful to lots of reasonable people (ie certainly not just TRAs).

I genuinely think this moderation by Twitter has really unnerved and upset people. Maybe if that policy was rescinded things would calm a little. None of us likes the thought TRA are making moderating decisions.