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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet Grass Account

535 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/05/2018 11:08

Have just grassed you up for banning them @MNHQ

They said "Mumsnet you left us no choice"

I think you are supposed to hang your heads in shame Grin

Mumsnet Grass Account
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13
leyat · 07/05/2018 01:54

@thebewilderness just have to say I've been loving so many of your posts today :D

JustABrokenDoll · 07/05/2018 02:01

@Amalfimamma - the account is still active for me too. Have you accidentally muted them?

  • Disclaimer: Muted might not mean what I think it means, I'm not very techy >
Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 02:06

@JustABrokenDoll

I haven't muted them. I quite enjoy reading their tweets and seeing the hole they are digging for themselves and their cause.

Long may it last.

The only thing that bugs me is MNHQ bowing down to them sacrificing it's users and target audience for people who have no interest in mn Never mind it's sponsors or advertisers.

JustABrokenDoll · 07/05/2018 02:07

@Battleax - I've seen quite a few feminists retweeting this article

extra.ie/2018/04/15/news/irish-news/disabled-toilets-gender-neutral?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ExtraSocial

Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 02:11

@JustABrokenDoll

Just look at the numbers in that article. I don't know if you know any of the campuses mentioned in the article, but none of them deserve that number of bathrooms, Never mind gender neutral ones. I am truly shocked at them spending that money on gn toilets and not on disabled ones,

Battleax · 07/05/2018 02:13

I wasn’t suggesting that we’d ALL suggested it Broken. Obviously there are plenty of fellow feminists who haven’t made the suggestion.

Interesting that the issue has been part of “There have been no problems in Ireland” being debunked.

OnTheList · 07/05/2018 02:44

Now people who have gender identity issues want to be able to use those spaces. What people who are mobility-impaired are really sensitive about is that the space they fought for becomes unavailable to them because of other usage. They are right to be sensitive about that.’

FFS, what is wrong with fighting for your own spaces?! Like others had to do? When its not wanting to take over female areas, ts trying to take over the disabled area. Fight for an added unisex area. Stop trying to take what others have worked for.

That article has made me irrationally (or rationally maybe...) angry. Sorry if this post comes across ranty, but my fucking god, this is annoying.

thebewilderness · 07/05/2018 02:56

@leyat
Is this fawning? We have not had nay fawning for a few days and speaking for Millicent and myself it has been sorely missed.
Allow me to fawn back a bit by saying I think you brilliant.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/05/2018 05:20

@HebeMumsnet 's a star - and I like her sense of humour - btw the stationary cupboard is really nice. I also found another potential Gulag site as well:)

Seriously - the mods are obviously doing a great job and are under pressure - the problem is I don't understand what pressure. IE where is the increased moderation workload coming from? Who/what is causing that? All I read is it's us - which tbh doesn't make sense. So there must be something else at play.

I put a post up regarding weaponising the complaints system and the importance of discerning between usual complainants, unusually persistent complainants and unusually, unreasonable complainants. Many organisations, including the police, find an increasing percentage of their workload is being spent on complaints generated by the latter group (who use agents like MPs, media etc to create rolling thunder trains). I can't help but think this may be at play here with the MN workload - that a very small group, largely external, are causing enormous amounts of work, by weaponising the complaints system and bringing others agents into play to amplify their unreasonable demands.

Therefore MN are cowed into thinking they have a problem with the FWR board and must therefore "tone it down" to stop it becoming a focus of media reports and speculation. MN won't want that constant media spotlight and unrelenting accusations of "transphobic MN" and also won't want to be in the firing line for a vexatious legal case brought by said group against them - it's not good for their brand.

The solution other organisations have found to the issue I outlined is to treat that minority group differently i.e. to handle them differently to the other two categories, often by firmly rebutting their assertions. It is also recommended to stop access to services for those complainants. The worse thing to do is try and appease them as they use that to flood the organisation with even more unreasonable demands. Organisations have to develop frameworks to deal with these types.

I think what's happening is a small group of unreasonable TRA complainants, like MRAs, are using other platforms to amplify their unreasonable demands and to bring pressure on MN. It won't get any easier until a court case is brought to sort out the legal framework. In the meantime MN want to get out of the spotlight and can't.

I don't see any answer other than firstly for us, as a whole, to ignore the provocations from Twitter and the media outlets and stop referring to them/posting about them (unless they are serious e.g. the recent doxxing). In other words, we don't become part of their orchestrated amplification. Secondly for us to focus on the main goal of discussing and preparing the arguments that refute the unreasonable assertions, as a legal case will come about soon, one way or the other. Thirdly to play the ball not the person even in SG's case. Talk about the lobbying behaviour of the organisation and the undue influence rather than the person(s). Take the identities out of the equation. Fourthly ignore known sealions.

From MN's perspective, not entertaining the claims of transphobia would be helpful - we largely do self mod reasonably well and I am amazed at the engagement and openness of diverse views here on FWR. Much provocation comes from sealioning and coercive control - as there are trolls who deliberately inflame and provoke (as in DV) by dismissing, ignoring, downplaying and minimising reasonable points of view- it would be good to see some OPs banned for those tactics - these are the concern trolls who don't contribute anything to the discussions but do inflame and unfortunately as in DV, the genuine OP can look like the problem as they are provoked unreasonably by unrelenting, covert, coercive control tactics. Perhaps some of this is being projected at the mods or being displayed in heated exchanges - a normal response to those tactics.

I can only manage myself by disengaging as soon as I feel angry - doesn't always work and can result in more stationery cupboard banishments through discharging it thru humour - but that's an easy price to pay - i.e. if some threads are "sin binned"!

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/05/2018 05:22

Re the M word - I thought it was the variation of Mongolia that is not on - not moron. Am I correct in that assumption?

Battleax · 07/05/2018 05:49

Mongoloid, Cretin, and Moron are all problematic.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moron_(psychology)

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/05/2018 06:12

OK thx Battleax

Battleax · 07/05/2018 06:31

Thinking about it, the history of those words, the Eugenics fad, Buck v Bell etc are an encouraging example of how bad social policy based on bad science doesn’t last. Highly relevant to the transgender trend and self ID;

m.youtube.com/watch?v=1DnH0Yalhro

Greymisty · 07/05/2018 08:29

Agree with PP's going for a chill in the stationery cupboard. I think posters do at times cross lines but perhaps womanformallyknownaswoman is right its not a baseline response but an reactionary one due to provocatation.

The toilet issue will never be solved i dont think. Most the disabled toilets you see in the uk aren't changing places ones so aren't particularly accessible. So the fight there hasn't been won. I wish these TRAs who claim to be feminst and intersectional feminist at that would actually do some work for actual marginalised and vulnerable groups.

Lemonjello · 07/05/2018 09:20

I don't want men in female only spaces however they identify.

YY. I want privacy from male bodies thanks, how they identify is irrelevant.

I can’t see, hear, smell, touch or taste a male gender identity. Why would I need privacy from one?

💙💜🧡💛💚❤️

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 10:21

Oh, so that was Mermaids Helen? No wonder she came across so, um, well, maybe better not to say specifically other than "not well".

leyat · 07/05/2018 11:19

@thebewilderness yes definitely fawning :D

@lemonjello exactly!

LaSqrrl · 07/05/2018 11:55

Amalfimamma yes, that @mumsnetreport twitter is still active. And I am having the sads that I have not made the 'transphobic cut'.

It is ridiculous that an external site is having influence on moderation decisions here. This debate has been raging elsewhere online for over a decade now.

Way back in the thread, Sonic said summarised it best:
MNHQ tried to strike a balance between a misogynistic TRA ideological position versus a pro-woman scientific Gender-Critical one. You can't balance that. There is no middle ground. You never should have tried to pander to an ideology where males refuse to let women use words unless they only say those words when they mean the opposite of what they actually mean. It's bonkers. You were never going to be able to play to both sides on this. You should have sided with women, not men, at the very start.

My thoughts exactly. Ultimately, they will have to come down on one side or the other. Could be one of the biggest business decisions they ever make, they won't see that, until it's too late. The T-Borg take over a site, yes, it all starts by being nicey, using pronouns and wotnot, then T-issues become the forefront, and the feminists walk away from being constantly censored. After the T-Borg have done their take-over, the site becomes a shell of its former self. The only reason that MN have a buzzing feminist forum now, is because it happened to several other predecessors. That's ok, feminists like me, we are mobile, we just take it to the next site that hasn't been taken over. Yeah, MN might want to analyse the different forum page hits to see what they may be losing in the terms of revenue.

What I am seeing on the FWR forum right now, is a fight-to-the-death. We are actually trying to keep it alive, and truthful. But we won't be treated like naughty little schoolgirls forever. Mark my words, there will be an exodus.

Radical feminists have been historically on-point as to the strategies used in all of this; from T asking for A, then B, then omg, C (self-ID). All of the things that TRAs assure us (women) 'will never happen', happen, and on a very regular basis now. MN are a fairly newish to the party. They may wish to do their own investigations as to what happened to previous feminist sites that were taken over. It ain't pretty. It wears a pink dress and has stubble. But yay! for being woke. And dead in the water.

LaSqrrl · 07/05/2018 12:00

As for deleted comments, yes, I totally agree with the posters that said the 'offending' comment should be quoted and messaged as to what guidelines it contravened.

That, and yes, I would rather the odd 'offending' comment stood, rather than being deleted. After all, to my sensibilities, every time someone says 'cis women', it is highly offensive (these comments stand). Moderation has become a little heavy-handed of late. Threads are looking like swiss-cheese. And not in a tasty way.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 12:01

(Points up)

I've seen it happen to multiple sites, all of which are now sad ghost town versions of their former selves with nothing much going on other than the occasional tumbleweed rolling through. If MNHQ give in on this it won't just be the feminists who end up leaving (or being banned), it will kill their entire business, because the business is fundamentally based on women talking to each other about the realities of being female and TRAs consider that intolerable.

LadyLauraOver · 07/05/2018 12:02

The paedophile plan thread certainly empted out quickly. Didn't a couple of posters disappear? Little Voice of Sanity went and I think one other did?

KittyKlaws · 07/05/2018 12:06

I've seen it happen to multiple sites, all of which are now sad ghost town versions of their former selves with nothing much going on other than the occasional tumbleweed rolling through. If MNHQ give in on this it won't just be the feminists who end up leaving (or being banned), it will kill their entire business, because the business is fundamentally based on women talking to each other about the realities of being female and TRAs consider that intolerable.

Got to say, so have I. I can think of at least 7 forums I have known off which went this way after aggressive moderation or moderation which was too focused on one thing. In the end it divides a site, annoys people and they leave. Or at least that has been my experience, it has always followed the same sequence of events.

KittyKlaws · 07/05/2018 12:06

*Of not off

LaSqrrl · 07/05/2018 12:09

Thanks for the echo on the now-ghost feminist sites.
Yeah, shame. But they invited the wolf into granny's house.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 12:23

Remember when Feministe had actual commenters and not just a bunch of grifters begging for money? Don't be them, MNHQ.

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