Women have the right to state that trans women are actually trans-identifying men

[Terfulike]

This is our right: to state simple biological truths.
We will not be told to lie.
We will not be silenced.
Biological lies must stop.
Biological lies have no place in UK legislation.

please link to these articles/studies

To say people don’t chose their gender identity is not correct. I’m sure that everyone would agree that the “gender” traits, according to stereotype, that people outwardly display change according to the situation in which they find themselves.

How a person presents when they are feeling insecure is significantly different to when they are at a job interview.

If we don’t choose our “gender” presentation then how do you explain men who marry, have children, present as men until middle age and then transition to present as women?

Presumably, if they would argue that they have the “wrong body”, which is obviously not possible, they were choosing to present as male for the first 40 odd years.

cein: male and female describe reproductive role.

Whatever your brain says, it doesn't change your reproductive role.

Sure, dysphoria is real. Dysphoria doesn't change your reproductive role.

Dysphoria is not identity. It is dysphoria. Sex dysphoria is unhappiness with reproductive role. It doesn't change your reproductive role. If certain males think they are females because of certain personality traits they possess, it simply means that those personality traits have been incorrectly described as female, when in reality they exist in male brains too.

Really well put Pratchet

People don't 'choose' their gender identity, anymore than they choose their sexual orientation

Yes, your personality evolves over time and is influenced by many things. The problem lies in describing personality as gender identity. You end up divvying up personality traits and attributing them to one sex or the other.That's sexist.

Bah! That's sexist!

I totally agree with this - I have just joined MN & I hear they are censoring this kind of comment? Since when is a fact transphobic? Where is the definition of transphobia? Is something odd going on?

Why is it transphobic? If they are 'trans' they must be 'transitioning' from something to something else. Obviously male to female. Except you can't actually change your sex, so they are men, but most people out of politeness have gone along with the fiction and said 'she' & 'her'. But now some trans activists are trying to erode women's rights and change our language; so being nice has gone out of the window. Face to face I wouldn't embarrass anyone who presented as female; but I will not accept males in women's spaces, sports and on things like AWSs

And not have legislation passed on the strength of that belief which will seriously affect women's lives

People don't 'choose' their gender identity, anymore than they choose their sexual orientation.

Don't they? Phil/Pippa Bunce chooses on a daily basis.

To be fair he identifies as 'gender fluid' it would appear.
Don't you read the FT dahlinks!

Totally agree. MNHQ really need to think about the impact of this. Language is being used to silence women. Many use mumsnet for a multitude of reasons. It's a lifeline. Please don't bow down to TRA minority. Feelings don't trump fact.

Feelings are just feelings. I don't wear frocks and heels, nor make up if I can get away with it. (socialised to look "presentable" for work and social occasions). I work in IT and mix mainly with men. I don't "feel" male or female - but I am female down to my biology. Men in frocks are still men.

Terfulike;
I can't do links. You might wish to look at material about D.E.S; diethylstibestrol. Or desaction.org. The effects of that stuff ( an endocrine disruptor) has been horrific especially for girl babies, legions, etc , where the damage seems to run though several generations. The association with transsexuality/ gender issues is strong, and internationally known, but not as unmistakable as lesions.

If they are 'trans' they must be 'transitioning' from something to something else.

You would think, however 'trans' includes people who do not wish to 'transition' in any way, along with crossdressers (who do not wish to transition, they just like stereotypically femine clothing) and drag queens, feminine men, masculine women, and a bunch of other people too.

Its transphobic to say that trans people are transitioning or even want to transition at all.

Mind, everything is transphobic these days. The word is meaningless.

A person's acquired gender is not legally recognised until they obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate. They do not actually change sex. The transition refers to transitioning from one way of life to another, not necessarily physical changes. Self-identification is not (yet) recognised in law.

A person's acquired gender is not legally recognised until they obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Yes. So any transwoman without a GRC, however they might present, is legally male as well as biologically.

KayM2
I've had a quick search re: diethylstilbestrol. There does seem to be a link between exposure in utero and cancer, particularly in women.

The link to gender identity does not seem very strong. I have only managed to find one study, not peer reviewed, by Scott Kerlin. Based on a self-selected sample of 300 men with confirmed prenatal DES exposure, 90 reported being transsexual/transgender/gender dysphoric. These are people who joined a support group because they had physical or psychological issues which they thought might be due to DES exposure before birth.

It is estimated that 3-5 million American women took this drug between 1948 and 1971 as well as being widely prescribed in Canada, Europe and Australia. Around half the babies born to these women would have been boys, so 300 is a very small sample to draw any conclusion. Especially as those who had no medical or gender identity issues would not have joined the support group.

If you know of any other studies, maybe you could post some links or just give the author/year/title so that anyone can find it.

I and my sister were exposed to DES in utero. We had to have annual colposcopies because it causes vaginal cancer which is really rare. We are lucky because we've been able to conceive but many of our DES sisters have malformed uteri and other abnomalities. I have not heard of any associated dysphoria.

re DES. The links to gender issues and / or homosexuality are pretty much accepted by many, but there is by no means an overwhelming case that has been taken to law. The effects on ( some) girl babies is much better established. And is clearly, any way you look at it, much worse.It really is/ was a scandal, and it may not be the only such. Awful business.

Afterthought; I have never seen any suggestion of dysphoria in female babies, which is little consolation. Filthy stuff. My mother boasted of the miracle drug that saved her baby ( ie me, supplied privately in ( just ) pre NHS days. It is perhaps just fortunate for me that I was born a boy.