Equality isn't fair.

[RandomAOKindness]

Hi all,

I lurk around here a bit but had a really great discussion with my class yesterday about equality vs fairness and it made me wonder how you view the end goal of feminism. Is it to make things equal for both sexes or to make them fair?

We ended up actually discussing a masculist issue more than a feminist one - the idea that as a man's life expectancy is ~ 3 years less than a females in the UK, then men should have the option to retire earlier than women. This would be (in my opinion) fair, although not equal.

I was trying to think of other examples to further discuss with my class with feminism in mind where there is inequality which actually promotes fairness. Can anyone add to our discussion?

Most retired women I know work full time in the house, they do almost all of the housework, wife work, planning, organising. When you are looking at work are you taking into account all the unpaid caring work that women do in their lifetime? Childcare, caring for elderly relatives etc. Or did you just count paid, employed work. Have that discussion with your class first, what is work, why is men's roles paid more, why are female roles so low paid when an equivalent male role pays a decent wage. Why is work low paid and undervalued when women do it but becomes high paid and high status when males take over.

Seriously, do some more thinking and reading before you start shaping young minds and telling them men are harder working.

In answer to the question, I'm here for the liberation.

Google equity.
equality.jpg

All Women Shortlists, when properly managed, are not equal but are fair because they are redressing an overwhelming bias against selection of women which happens without AWS and results in underrepresentation of women in parliament.

How old were these kids? It sounds like the discussion embraced the 5th Rule of Misogyny very swiftly and I wonder how that happened.

That's a great picture, thanks bewilderness. Very child friendly too.

Seahorses, I don't believe men work harder though yes our discussion was in relation to paid employment. I would question those retired women as to why they are doing the majority of that unpaid work? Is it because their partners are at work still, having not yet retired, or is it because their partners expect it/those roles have been entrenched for years? My partner and I share house related and caring work. He would find it bizarre if we didn't, and I wouldn't be here if we didn't. We both work in paid employment full time so the agreement is that is fair. If one or the other of us became unemployed or retired or needed to care for a relative, yes that may change the agreement.

I certainly wasn't promoting the view of men as superior workers to the children, just that sometimes things that appear fair aren't fair.

We also used the example of children who have learning difficulties receiving extra time on tests or additional adult support in lessons. It doesn't look fair, but it is.

I just like to balance perspectives as I'm not here to oppress men, I'm here to elevate women to an equal footing; it's important for the children to see me as the latter and not the former.

It sounds like the discussion embraced the 5th Rule of Misogyny very swiftly and I wonder how that happened.

How So Yimmini? Because we also recognised that men have their own issues? Denying these issues would be like saying no, white people can't experience racism, because other races experience it more. Just because there are obstacles to overcome for one group, doesn't mean that there aren't also obstacles for the other group, even if they are in a different field or of a much different size.

This is the feminist and women's rights section of Mumsnet and you want to play what about the men.
Odds are you are the midnight misogynist back again.

I just find it so odd that in all the examples you could think of you come down to something that isn't fair for men. So odd really and quite a shame to promote that idea to kids.

Ha I don't know who the midnight misogynist is but it's 8am here and I spent a lot of time last week angry after I discovered what an incel is and their little breeding grounds of hate on reddit.

I would take that term greatly to heart and be incredibly upset if that were the perception.

I genuinely am just interested in the discussion; I was hoping that this forum might be able to provide examples of where women are actually looking for equity as opposed to equality, or where equality is equity in that given sphere. For example, equal pay for equal work would appear to be equity but I know this doesn't necessarily take into account the fact the nuances of how having children can impact on the opportunities to earn equally to men.

Or is the goal, let's achieve equality first then look at equity. From your own point of view obviously, I know there is not one 'correct' answer to that question.

You might want to have a look at your views on racism too...

Google is your friend.

It would be interesting to look at actual retirement ages. Among the people I know, men have better pensions so are more likely to retire early. Single or divorced women can end up working a long time, due to poverty.

That's why I'm here Seahorses, I could think of lots of examples of equality, but was trying to think of some for equity and struggled. Like you say, I'd like to be able to present that to them as well.

I wasn't sure if the Wimbledon prize is an example or not? That the women now win the same despite technically playing less tennis over the tournament. I think this is fair because within the rules of the competition, women play over 3 sets and men over 5. So if anything the rules should be adjusted, not the prize.

I know it's a low key example but I was hoping to use it as a launch pad to talking about the disparity in pay in general.

It's about equality of opportunity.

I've heard this retirement age argument from MRAs. The reality is that men die on average earlier because they are more likely to take risks, including not going to the doctor early enough. The real question should be, are women at, say, 68 years old, healthier and more capable of working than men at the same age? And even if so, are employers likely to hire them? The truth is, most people will retire as early as they can afford. Those forced to carry on working at that age are likely to be in low paid, manual jobs - not suitable for an elderly person.

Seahorses, I've experienced racism when I lived in Asia, to the point where my boyfriend needed medical treatment for his injuries after being beaten. White people can experience racism the same as men can experience domestic violence. It may be less common and seems like a small issue but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

My mum retired at 84 when she had a stroke.

I wasn't sure if the Wimbledon prize is an example or not? That the women now win the same despite technically playing less tennis over the tournament. I think this is fair because within the rules of the competition, women play over 3 sets and men over 5. So if anything the rules should be adjusted, not the prize.

I do find it very odd that all the examples you mention are classic MRA arguments used by men who think that women have it better than men...

A more natural example would be the reasonable adjustments that employers and service providers have to make for disabled people to allow them access to employment/services.

Given that women frequently hold down full time jobs while also doing the fast majority of the housework, childcare, elder care, wife work, and the emotional labour, I think we should probably retire at about 35 to even things out.

I will retire later than my husband.

Is it fair that females are aborted because they are female?

Is it fair that baby girls are dumped in the rubbish because they are female?

Is it fair that women are subjected to domestic violence on an epidemic scale and their shelters are being closed?

Is it fair that job roles occupied by women are low paid but low skill work occupied by men is paid well?

Is it fair that 85 000 women and girls are raped in the UK but few will come forward because they will not be believed?

Is it fair that a man can get away with rape because he says he "fell on top" of his victim when his penis was erect?

But, yeh, Wimbledon and retirement age.

Oh, I forgot the compulsory grooming. My male colleagues can fall out of bed, quick shower and they’re good to go. I’m not fussed about my appearance, but in order to reach the minimum professional standards I need to wash my hair most days, style it, apply make-up, and wear more inconvenient clothes (which I have to wash and iron myself).

So take at least a year or two off women’s retirement age for grooming.

Thanks NotTerf - one of the boys did actually suggest that the difference in life expectancy might be because men take more risks in general and 'do silly things' but I didn't think about the fact that that would also include things like not going to the doctor. Good point.

Interesting question, OP.

Seahorses - all of those things are unfair yes. But in the context of talking to children, the Wimbledon prize is an acceptable discussion. Rape, abortion, FGM, murder is not.

I'm not trying to belittle these points. I completely agree with you. They are hideous remnants from a male dominated history and I support everyone who makes strides to end those inequities. But I can't have that discussion with children, despite the fact that the points and content is valid and valuable.

Ally - FWIW we did also talk about disability adjustments and provision and linked this to what we had learned about the Paralympics.

Have you actually looked at the situation around women’s tennis?

Female players have been saying for years that they’re happy to play 5 sets (remember this is only an issue in grand slams). The tournaments don’t want them to - they don’t have the time to schedule potentially an extra two sets per women’s match, and the male game is prioritised, even though women’s tennis brings in a great deal of revenue and has comparable viewing figures.

The women have been asking for the opportunity to do an equal amount of work. They have been refused. Under that scenario equal pay is the only fair resolution as the women don’t have the option of playing more sets.

And actually, it’s not the number of sets that’s the issue in how much they get paid - it’s revenue for the tournament. If women’s tennis brought in more money from TV networks and higher viewer stats they should be entitled to a higher proportion of the money than the men, right? The number of sets played is a red herring.