Equality isn't fair.

[RandomAOKindness]

Hi all,

I lurk around here a bit but had a really great discussion with my class yesterday about equality vs fairness and it made me wonder how you view the end goal of feminism. Is it to make things equal for both sexes or to make them fair?

We ended up actually discussing a masculist issue more than a feminist one - the idea that as a man's life expectancy is ~ 3 years less than a females in the UK, then men should have the option to retire earlier than women. This would be (in my opinion) fair, although not equal.

I was trying to think of other examples to further discuss with my class with feminism in mind where there is inequality which actually promotes fairness. Can anyone add to our discussion?

Good thread OP
I often get asked about fairness by my kids. We sometimes forget how they might see the world - it can be very black and white to them and something that appears 'unfair' or 'unequal' might need further explanation so they can see how the 'unfairness' is actually making the situation 'fair', and producing equity. I think your Wimbledon example is a good one and is at the right level for primary school children. It's also teaching them to look behind the story, rather than taking everything at face value, an important skill in these days of 24hr news and seeing the world through short sharp messages on SM rather than long newspaper articles.

Other examples (depending on age and understanding of kids):

• women-only swim sessions - explaining about religious conventions around nudity, need for privacy etc
• International Women's Day but no (official) Mens Day....I'm sure this one is obvious and I bet some of your class has dads that moan about this every year!
• (maybe contentious, but based on a productive discussion with my children) talk about why there's so few men teaching in primary schools, about old-fashioned ideas and unfounded and unfair attitudes towards men in jobs around small children. I used this to demonstrate how historical values cause unfairness and bias for a long time into the future, which is a one reason why women continue to be oppressed "we've always done it this way"

There is an international men’s day

pitterpatterrain yes, I was mistaken in thinking it wasn't official. It is. But it certainly isn't as high profile or as well known as IWD, which is why so many men moan about not having one every year, and Richard Herring has to do his brilliant thing

Thanks serfandterf. We are actually a really gender balanced staff but I think the kids probably take it for granted so it would be interesting to hear their views on that topic.

Tammy, I think maybe my post wasn't clear. I am in agreement with you and I think women should win the same amount; like you said, it is the competition that is limiting the 'work' they are able to complete with the schedule etc.

I'm interested by your point about advertising revenue. Is it then fair that female footballers are paid much less than their male counterparts because less revenue is generated ? That has always seemed unfair to me, but actually maybe it is unequal instead?

I know really that is just scratching the surface of a much deeper issue with the value of women's contribution to anything, but hard to envision what a move toward equity would look like in that sphere.

That's probably my own ignorance though and would welcome some more perspectives!

Equality in this kind of context is about equality of status and opportunity.

I don’t think equality means what you think it means really when talking about the politics of rights.

Equality in this context does not mean ‘the same’. It is specifically about ‘different but equal in status and opportunity’

Hi OP,

I think it’s great you are discussing feminism with your class. What age are the children?

The end goal of feminism is the liberation of women to be treated as full human beings.

This may sound basic but if you reflect on the reality of being a woman in the world at the moment you will see that the current set up from the poorest country to the richest places women in an inferior place on the basis of our biology.

I would really recommend reading the following two books listed at the end of the post as they will explain in clear detail what my statement means regarding feminism. They will also really help you with explaining feminism to your class.

The flip side is that the liberation of women also help boys and men. When people - both women and men are unemcumbered by social expectations and social restrictions, they can be happier, healthier and more productive.

Cordelia Fine: Delusions of Gender
(An award winning neuroscientist discussing scientific evidence that the two sexes have the same brain but socialisation moulds the respective brains over time to create the imbalances we see)

Michelle Goldberg: The Means of Reproduction; Sex, Power & the future of the world
(Brilliant, very readable New York Times journalist, she gives a huge, historic overview of women’s lived realities and the fight for women’s rights over the past 50 years)

“International Women's Day but no (official) Mens Day....I

19th November.

I’m not at all surprised by the way that you ended up discussing the sufferings of the privileged group of people because of sexism... this is what usually happens.

Feminism does not say ‘men don’t suffer’ when they talk about male privilege. Patriarchy is a system under which men suffer individually or on a limited number of issues as a cost related to the overall gain of oppression of women as a class.

Men are not being oppressed as a class, their sufferings are part of the payment required to gain from oppression. The concessions that are made under patriarchy are usually about reducing the costs men bear wherever possible and not about doing away with the structural oppression that creates those costs.

For certain groups of men those costs may be HUGE. This is usually based on them being part of an economic class that is not desirable or having values that are not desirable such as being working class men (capitalism) or being men who have ‘feminine’ values. They don’t adequately uphold the twin desirable values of our society: capitalism/patriarchy and so their status is in between men that do and all women (capitalist women at the top of women, working class lesbians/single mothers at the bottom whose lives inherently exist outside male control).

Feminism seeks specifically to end the oppression of women as a class which would also end the sufferings of men that are the costs of maintaining that oppression.

Just to clear things up, I don't actually believe in equality because I don't believe people are all the same. I believe in equity. Some people are disabled, some people are born into poverty, women bear children so we aren't exactly the same or coming from the same starting point and that has to be acknowledged before you start talking about rights.

For example maternity leave is based on the biological difference between men and women, acknowledging 1) that some women may require physical recovery and 2) many women will be using their own bodies to feed. This does not affect men for the most part (bearing in mind that maternal death still occurs in childbirth). After that maternity leave there may be a disparity in the position of men who didn't have to leave work (even if they had a child with a partner too in that time) and the women who did affecting their career paths. This is because we are different and differences affect us adversely - we are not equal. Laws then have to help those who are adversely affected by our differences.

FYI the idea of patriarchy being oppressive means that men are affected negatively by it too. Being under a patriarchy isn't beneficial to men or women (unless of course you are the men at the top).

Equality in this context does not mean ‘the same’. It is specifically about ‘different but equal in status and opportunity’

Right.

Thank you Offred, that is a really clear summary and has given me some food for thought about the kind of spectrum of oppression I suppose is how I'm now visualising it as. Also wondering where I would place myself on that spectrum.

I also look forward to reading those books Quarks. The children are 10 and 11. I love having discussions like this with them because it then encourages reflection in all of us. They're great thinkers at that age. Beautiful part of my job 😊

I very much agree with this;

I love having discussions like this with them because it then encourages reflection in all of us. They're great thinkers at that age. Beautiful part of my job

All I would add is just to be mindful that schools are authoritarian in structure and this is important to realise for teachers who will be positioned as ‘the authority’ often no matter how much you want the above to be the most important thing about discussing things!

Random, if the kids are 10 and 11 then you can talk about more than retirement age and men's tennis. Look at how women and girls are treated around the world, look at gender roles which are taught, not innate.

I think that you could carry on with retirement - perhaps look at why women retired earlier than men (originally - since this is being equalised now).

I'm searching for the post, but there was once a very informative poster on this issue - it boils down to that in order to get a married couple's pension, both people needed to be of retirement age. Men tended to marry younger women, and were therefore having to wait longer to get the full amount, so they changed it, so that both people in the couple tended to retire at about the same age.

This could also then lead into fairness around pensions - about women being encouraged to be stay at home parents and therefore not having the opportunity to accumulate the same amount of pension - which leads into child benefit of course, as well as caring responsibilities and how those are split, and what happens in the case of relationship breakdown - especially if a woman is encouraged/forced to become financially dependent on her partner and therefore materially damages her earning prospects.

Equality isn't fair. To who? Men?
Why does it have to be?

People are not identical, and we don't need identical rights.

!AH Found it - grimbletart - first post on page 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2597162-Feminism-claims-to-be-about-equality-and-not-pro-female-but-why-no-outcry-about-current-Tax-law?pg=2

+ women-only swim sessions - explaining about religious conventions around nudity, need for privacy etc

There are also men only swim sessions where there is a demand for them - eg. the one that Sweary went to for Man Friday - you should probably check your local pool to check.

+ International Women's Day but no (official) Mens Day....I'm sure this one is obvious grin and I bet some of your class has dads that moan about this every year!

For an 'unofficial' day, there are sure are a lot of events for it still...

+ (maybe contentious, but based on a productive discussion with my children) talk about why there's so few men teaching in primary schools, about old-fashioned ideas and unfounded and unfair attitudes towards men in jobs around small children. I used this to demonstrate how historical values cause unfairness and bias for a long time into the future, which is a one reason why women continue to be oppressed "we've always done it this way"

I think you'll find that, much like nursing, that's because they're fast-tracked to management...... certainly true of every primary school I've been involved with.

Frankly I'm amazed the kids haven't come up with more to talk about than women's tennis and retirement age. But I assume they'll bring up men dying in workplace accidents, male suicide, men's healthcare, men being deployed in the front line and the iniquity (and inequity) of the Family Courts soon......

Frankly I'm amazed the kids haven't come up with more to talk about than women's tennis and retirement age. But I assume they'll bring up men dying in workplace accidents, male suicide, men's healthcare, men being deployed in the front line and the iniquity (and inequity) of the Family Courts soon......

Liberty is more important than equality, and the pursuit of equality cannot be entertained without a corresponding reduction in Liberty. In addition because humans are imperfect according to whose dictates are we defining equality? As a direct result even in the pursuit of equality we can end up making things less equal too. It's a lose/lose propesition.

Yes white people can be victims of intolerance and bigotry, although we don't call it racism anymore as the meaning of the word has been changed to suit a particular progressive agenda. It's safer to stay away from the word racism with regards to white people, but better to accurately describe and call out prejudice, bigotry and intolerance wherever it exists.

I don't believe we have entertained Liberty for women to quite the same degree as men and we need to ask and advocate for things that give women more Liberty. Violence is one thing that discourages women from full participation, the relative size differential needs to be factored in so women we free to speak their mind in public. Childbirth and the biological limitations this place on women could also use an analysis. Perhaps we need to consider having children as a shared benefit to society and not a drain and pool resources accordingly. Finally women need to have the same access to education, which whilst on paper they do, the fact that girls as young as six are expressing less confidence in themselves relative to boys means their choices are already being curtailed in the most dangerous place of all: their own minds.

Lots of valuable contributions, thank you.

Just to clarify in case there is a misunderstanding, we have spoken about Malala and suffrage and gender neutrality/gender roles - this is all part of the curriculum covered through PSHE and humanities and the promotion of British Values.

We dedicated International Women's day to learning about the plight of women in different countries around the world in terms of access to education and quality of life. We make a concious effort to involve the work of female scientists, authors, astronauts and many other professions in our studies.

We actually started with the picture of the animals that are required to climb a tree to 'pass'. The whole discussion was centred on what does being fair mean and was off the back of the girls being 'allowed' to play football by the boys, but then ignored when they were on the pitch.

It was organic and in no way meant to undermine the fight for women's rights and opportunities.

My new question is, how else would you like to see feminism promoted in schools? What more can be done? (Meant in a very sincere way, not a sarcastic one!)

For me personally it is hard for teachers and schools to do because they are a fundamental part of the system. Part of schools’ function IMO is teaching children about authority and out of critical thinking (individual teachers’ motivations and values aside though I know loads who gave up training because they just couldn’t fit into the authoritarianism).

What I can say though is I would, as a parent, have very much appreciated my children having been in your class for that discussion.