Equality isn't fair.

[RandomAOKindness]

Hi all,

I lurk around here a bit but had a really great discussion with my class yesterday about equality vs fairness and it made me wonder how you view the end goal of feminism. Is it to make things equal for both sexes or to make them fair?

We ended up actually discussing a masculist issue more than a feminist one - the idea that as a man's life expectancy is ~ 3 years less than a females in the UK, then men should have the option to retire earlier than women. This would be (in my opinion) fair, although not equal.

I was trying to think of other examples to further discuss with my class with feminism in mind where there is inequality which actually promotes fairness. Can anyone add to our discussion?

I also think structurally on a broader level it is virtually impossible for schools themselves, in their current state, to not be authoritarian BTW. I know a significant number of teachers and school leaders feel sad about the current state of things.

If you have several classes of thirty teenagers in each year group and a ridiculous curriculum and standardised testing then authoritarianism becomes more and more necessary just to get things done.

Equality is fair.

But it isn't necessarily 'the same'.

And I don’t think liberty and equality are in opposition. They are slightly different concepts to me.

Liberty and authority may be in opposition at the extremes but also work together in many ways but it’s always necessarily a rabbit hole of ‘what is meant by...?’ and ‘in what context?’ ‘Which approach best suits the aims?’ In any of these discussions because the fact that words have meanings is both a blessing and a curse.

I believe it is not possible to achieve total liberty for everyone on every issue, is that even something we want? Human rights laws have taken a balancing approach in recognition of the fact that one person’s freedom is another’s slavery on most issues. I tend to agree with this approach. It is applied through authoritarian structures here.

The issues of liberty almost always need to be examined using ‘from what?’ and ‘to do what?’ and ‘how does this affect other people?’ questions IMO. Authority also needs questioning.

It is important because issues of liberty are some of the most important questions of humanity and of the modern world IMO.

Feminism is concerned with both liberty and equality, this is in conflict currently with the liberty of the male class because of inequality in liberty but it does not mean equality and liberty are themselves in opposition, what is in opposition is specifically the liberty of each IMO.

In America a few years ago, the women’s World Cup final soccer match featuring the American women’s team had the highest viewer ratings of any televised soccer match in America to date. Of course they weren’t compensated fairly for that in comparison to male players

In this country women’s football isn’t taken seriously at all, perhaps women’s football would be as lucrative for clubs and TV networks if they bothered to show it properly. The fact that it’s not even questioned shows how ingrained misogyny is. Female players again aren’t given the same opportunity to earn, and for no actual reason besides misogyny.

Disturbinglyorangescrambledegg

Thank you. That post was me under my former incarnation. Probably the only useful contribution I have ever made to FWR as, being ancient, I feel a bit hesitant and aware that I should refrain from falling into my default mode of "get a grip" - default mode of many of us 2nd way feminists

wave, not way FFS.

International Women's Day but no (official) Mens Day....I'm sure this one is obvious grin and I bet some of your class has dads that moan about this every year!

For obvious reasons, International Men's Day, November 19th, gets the most internet mentions on International Women's Day.
Every single year on IWD men ask why there is no IMD and women explain to them that there is and tell them when it is.
Is it nature or nurture that causes them to behave like narcissists whenever everything is not all about them.

And IMD is bang smack near the middle of Movember... how on earth could they miss it - as plain as the 'tache on their face!

The only time a significant number of men care about IMD is on IWD. Tells you everything you need to know.

Simple fun exercise for a school class. Go to the library. Take all the books with no girls/women off the shelves. Take a photo. Do the same with men/boys.

Then the silent women, princesses and women and girls with no aspirations, goals or adventures off their own bat.

Have you watched the brilliant BBC documentary ‘No more boys and girls’ OP?

@QuarksandLeptons - great username. Are you also charmed and strange?

"Every single year on IWD men ask why there is no IMD and women explain to them that there is and tell them when it is"
To be fair, that is a job that largely falls to one particular man....

I wasn't sure if the Wimbledon prize is an example or not? That the women now win the same despite technically playing less tennis over the tournament.

The prize money is payment not just for match time at the tournament but also for time spent training in the preceding months, which is likely to be equal between the sexes. The reduced set count for women is to protect a class of people who are physically weaker from career-threatening overuse injuries during the tournament.

When deciding prize values and other remuneration for skilled tasks, consider the time spent learning the task. www.davidairey.com/picasso-and-pricing-your-work/

"it is about equality of opportunity" yes, but equal opportunity only gets you so far. We should be looking for equality (or equity) of outcomes.
So a black kid with 3 A's can get on the same university course as a white kid with 3 A's - that looks like equality of opportunity - but then why do way more white and Asian kids complete their degree? There is certainly a problem with equality of outcome that desperately needs to be addressed.
I think we have a similar problem with women in employment - they have the same opportunity to do well if they don't have children, are driven, entitled etc. But that isn't what women are like. [sorry for over simplifying]

Tell your children to look around when they go home after school.
Ask them who do they think built, made, constructed, transported and maintained every thing they see.
Then tell them it was men.

Do not lie to your children, OP. That is inexcusable advice.
The majority of what is in your house was made by women in sweat shops.

TerfsUp
Very good!

Then tell them to look around at all the people they see and tell them women made them, each and every darn one of them!

Not necessarily true when it comes to the buildings etc, sorry Vic.

"The truth is, most people will retire as early as they can afford."

" Among the people I know, men have better pensions so are more likely to retire early. Single or divorced women can end up working a long time, due to poverty.

This is false. The number of men in work past 50 is higher than the number of women by 600k www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5419837/Millions-women-forced-work-drop.html

I'd also point out that the state pension age has always been lower for women and won't be level until 2020. So historically men have always worked further into old age than women and are still doing so.

" The reality is that men die on average earlier because they are more likely to take risks, including not going to the doctor early enough"

You've ignored the biological differences and reasons eg higher levels of estrogen protect women from heart disease

"Is it fair that job roles occupied by women are low paid but low skill work occupied by men is paid well?"

Examples of this low skill high paid male work?

"The truth is, most people will retire as early as they can afford."

Does saying it is the truth make it true? I don't think so.
Large numbers of people are defined by their work and have no interest in retiring. It is only those with back or mind breaking jobs and those with other interests that are eager to retire. For many people their job is all the social life they have.

The number of men in work past 50 is higher than the number of women by 600k
Do you suppose that could have anything to do with the 10% difference in the employment of men and women? Criminy!

Hi OP, apologies , I haven't RTFT but you say a page back that rape, fgm etc are not topics that you can cover with children.

My little boy is 7 - he shocked me the other day when he was laughing about rape so I asked what it was. Turns out it is whacking people with your willy. He's right in a way so we managed to have a discussion on the rights and wrongs of 'whacking people with your willy'.

My point is that you can probably have an age appropriate discussion on things like rape and fgm too.

""it is about equality of opportunity" yes, but equal opportunity only gets you so far. We should be looking for equality (or equity) of outcomes.
So a black kid with 3 A's can get on the same university course as a white kid with 3 A's - that looks like equality of opportunity - but then why do way more white and Asian kids complete their degree? There is certainly a problem with equality of outcome"

Wow, it's scary that people actually think equity of outcome is something to aim for

Asian Americans are suing Harvard for discrimination in the admissions process www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/harvard-asian-admission.html

You do realise "positive" discrimination is still illegal, right?

Oh and if you want to start making it easier or harder for university students by race then why not do the same for gender? After all, more girls go to uni than boys and do better at uni

Oh and white working class boys are doing worse in education than any other group www.independent.co.uk/voices/our-education-system-is-inherently-prejudiced-against-white-working-class-boys-its-time-to-empower-a7072821.html

But let me guess, they're the wrong sex and race to benefit from positive discrimination in your opinion

Feminism is about women’s liberation.

Equality is something entirely separate.

I don’t think equality and women’s liberation are entirely separate.

I think it is pretty clear that liberty is finite in many ways (because it has to be balanced against other group’s liberties) and that what is being sought is equality of opportunity with reference to liberty.

What women don’t have is equality of liberty. It would not be equitable for women to have more liberty than men, providing you don’t buy into sexist views re women/men then it’s not equitable for men to have more liberty than women, as is the case currently (and for almost all of history). However, if you do buy into sexist crap re men and women then many many oppressive things appear equitable.

It is certainly achievable in modern wealthy societies for liberty to be balanced based on the idea that all people have equal value.

I don’t think equality of opportunity is as restrictive as simple opportunities to do things being open to people either. It’s about a whole life course and the many many factors that act to restrict someone’s opportunities in life from even before they are born.