Excellent article on the problem of transphobia

[crispbuttyfan]

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online/

"Regardless of intention, it seems to me that Mumsnet has allowed transphobia to become associated with their brand through their inaction. These boards have now become nothing short of echo chambers, spaces in which anti-trans rhetoric is continually employed with little objection."

The evidence is apparent throughout the feminism board.
Where lies are spread with abandon and the truth is slandered as 'gaslighting'.

cross post mum. What's that to do with 'word salad' and being manipulated (v confused again)

Sesquipedalia and word salad are not the same thing, surely?

Sesquipedalia is when something that has meaning is written in a long winded way using many uncommon words.

Word salad is when words and phrases are thrown together but there is no actual meaning contained in the writing.

Carrie - that's what I thought but was starting to doubt myself (and cba to Google definitions)

Fascinating read. I love to have the science laid out, from both viewpoints. Thank you @cripsbutty for starting such an informative thread.

Just going to leave this here for those who might wish to take a look:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

"Transphobic! Echo! Chamber!" ....nope!

The intimidation of MN is outrageous. Goading is a provocation not a crime, but if one frustrated poster takes the bait it will pull in others. Mods must be working round the clock. Then you lose, just by being human. The Pricks win, by being mad.

(It's a tiny scrap of comfort to know you guys are sometimes just as easily trolled as we are, that you are not always your own best ambassadors, and that its not always just us that refuses to leave the Playground.)

actually mummy I think you’ll find if you go through my posts every single one has been rebuttal or clarification or things you’ve said are the truth. I have been quite careful not to make any personal ad hom attacks on you, as per board guidelines. I’m also only posting under the one name here.

I’m attacking the arguments you are putting forward - at no point have I attacked you as a person.

Word salad is a recognised term used especially in psychiatric circles. When it’s applied to people speaking in the wider world it means a jumble of words, with no sense or order to them. It’s not the same as sesquipedalia which as carrie points out is more using overblown and flowery language. I’m being quite careful to keep my explanations simple.

Phenotype is actually not even a word I’d use in the context of Male vs female biology. To use it suggests that we somehow need to clarify further what male is and that’s not really the case.

There are males. There are females. There are very very rare cases of what is called intersex and there are DSDs. The term ‘intersex’ is really (willfully) misunderstood in TRA circles. It does not mean ‘half way between.’ The majority of children born with an intersex condition can be sexed chromosomally.

But intersex existing does not mean that human sex is not a binary. There are children born with sirenomelia (total or partial fusion of lower limbs to form one block) and there are children born with extra limbs. They exist, and don’t change the fact that the default number of limbs in humans is two arms and two legs.

You can use cases where things have gone wrong in development to help you unpick the mechanisms of normal development but you can’t start adding categories for funsies.

can they admit fallibility

Well I’m not actually in charge of Science or Taxonomy you see. If you want to overthrow a paradigm, an idea or a theory then science (as you know) is actually quite up for that. We are a sceptical but open minded bunch. Not too open minded or your brain falls out though - so there’s a catch - you’ll need evidence to change minds.

Phenotype is actually not even a word I’d use in the context of Male vs female biology. To use it suggests that we somehow need to clarify further what male is and that’s not really the case.

It is very common for TRAs to use it like this.

Yes they do. They use all sorts of big words without actually understanding what they mean.

I’m sure they think it sounds impressive. It’s actually more of a big red flag with ‘numpty’ written on it.

It’s be like me doing to the horticultural expert upthread ‘well yes BEES and co pollination and soil, yes soil is good, very soily, but PESTS and um... ORGANIPHOSPHAWHATSITS and doom and so in conclusion wasps are fabulous’

Actually I’ve just realised this is exactly how Donald trump talks, so bigly big wordage. Baddies. Yes.

can babelfish admit they might be wrong: That the categorization of phenotype isn't clear cut, especially when taking the intersexed and transition into account? Can they admit potential fallibility?

What are you asking here? Bowl is refuting your claims with further explanations as a more senior scientist - which it's clear she is even to us non-scientists. Why should she "admit" she might be wrong about this? It looks like you are trying to discredit her by saying she is not a "scientist worth her salt" if she doesn't say she might be wrong about something that is very clearly within her realm of expertise.

If a junior lawyer said to me "the law on X is Y" and I said "no the law on X is Z because A, B and C" and the junior lawyer said "but you might be wrong, because all lawyers can be wrong and no lawyer worth their salt would ever claim they could not be wrong and if you don't admit you might be wrong I'm not going to discuss this with you", I would say "you're fired" "you're failing at logic, just because I might be wrong at some point, doesn't mean I'm wrong here. If you want me to change my view about this, address A, B and C".

The science on this thread has been fascinating, thank you op for starting it and giving us a chance to discuss the fact around the binary nature of human sex.

I don't hate trans people, live and let live is what I say. But that works both ways, I can respect people who struggle with the gender roles society expects of them, to feel such a dissonance between your body and your feelings must be awful and I can and do admire those who overcome it and live their lives, by transitioning socially or medically.
Likewise, trans people should be able to respect the views and lives of others around them, and be open to working out how all of us can live together, without hatred or bigotry.
Unfortunately there is an increasingly unpleasant and violent movement of TRAs who have no intentions of doing this, or allowing anyone else, trans or not. Personally I think there is a deep seated misogyny at work, which is using this debate to put women back in the "box" which we have just escaped from.
Woman, know your place!

Look, it's really quite simple.

The oil industry doesn't get to arbitrate on the truth or falsity of the science round climate change just because they don't like the results.

American fundamentalist Christians don't get to arbitrate on the truth or falsity of evolutionary biology with "intelligent design" just because it conflicts with their beliefs.

The tobacco industry doesn't get to arbitrate on the truth or falsity of the science which shows that smoking causes lung cancer just because it cuts into their bottom line.

The TRA lobby doesn't get to arbitrate on the truth or falsity of biology and genetics just because they want us all to believe "transwomen are women."

Science doesn't work that way.

Simply saying I'm a troll or I shouldn't be teaching is a personal attack you have no idea what sort of teacher I am stating all people who support trans people are like tobacco companies, creationists and the oil industry is just poisoning the well. You claim you want debate but I don't think that is what you want if it was you wouldn't stoop to this p.s. TERFragette it's a beautifully sesquipidalian word to describe using complex words or sentences when a shorter simpler one would do. As for manipulation I don't want to go into it let's just say there's an individual who has been fanning flames pushing outdated theories like agp and generally harassing transwomen I'm aware of it gives them relevance and some sort of sense of purpose I suppose . However, that individual would never admit error their nature won't allow them, so I might be wrong with my suspicion.

Just popping in to say hello, I'm another working scientist (biochemistry / molecular biology) (CV and qualifications can be provided on demand ) and I have very much enjoyed babelfish's posts in particular.

You are confusing 'supporting transpeople' with 'agreeing with everything the trans lobby say', I think.

You don't, as far as I can see, agree that every male who says so should be counted as female.

(Don't exaggerate! No one said 'all people who support trans people are like tobacco companies, creationists and the oil industry'. Avoiding a conflict of interests is important in research, and is why authors of papers often declare any competing interests such as their own company, patent, payment from the tobacco industry etc.)

SesquiPEDalian. The middle bit refers to a foot. I wouldn't normally nag much, but if you love the word, you should know how to spell it.

Fascinating thread. And brilliant for lurkers.

Lancelottie quite right, my apologies you type in a word your phone doesn't know once and it gets stuck in the autocorrect predictive text.

Thank you to all who've contributed to this thread- it's been really enlightening.

@Mumtobe25 Are you saying you think babelfish might be someone who harasses trans identified males because she used the phrase “word salad”? But now maybe you don’t think she is that person because babelfish said she would be open to considering evidence that challenges the paradigm of sex differentiation?

How true. My phone determinedly prefers misspellings to real words.

R0wantrees you're very welcome

Lancelottie I know right? Sometimes it's like they have an impulse to misbehave if you want a laugh just type in any sentence beginning then let your phone decide what it is your going to say next.

This thread has brought to mind a picture of a group of Gender Critical Avengers assembling to fight mistruths and misdirections that seek to undermine everyday people going about their daily business of challenging gender stereotypes and societal practices that subjugate women.

In reality, I have no doubt that great things could be achieved if the shit hot lawyers, scientists, feminists, social theorists etc from this board did gather around a table and planned a coherent lobbying campaign that pulled all of this expertise together.

Already happening beau

a positive environment for lgbt parents not a hostile one

In case you are a bit behind on the debate, one of the most affected groups by the recent trans rhetoric is lesbian women.
Most of the recent rise in transitioning among adolescents is girls who are attracted to girls. One or both of "it's better to be a boy who's attracted to girls than a girl who's attracted to girls" [homophobia] and "it's better to be a boy in today's society than a girl" [sexism] is operating here.
This means that lesbians are literally disappearing as you are no longer a lesbian if you have become a boy who fancies girls.

And lesbians are also being threatened by a group of male TRAs who identify as female (who are I sincerely hope and believe a violent minority of trans people) as lesbians will not sleep with them since they don't fancy male-bodied individuals.

Mumsnet is somewhere that lesbians can come to talk about this. This makes it a very positive environment for lesbian parents.

I don't know how may gay dads we have on here but I believe some of the trans posters are also parents.