DARVO, coercive control etc

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I've seen these mentioned on a few thread here, as tactics used by MRAs in particular, to derail threads etc. I'm aware that these are tactics used by male abusers, and as such are distinct from the usual sea lioning, straw men etc?

I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here, and I was wondering if any of them would feel able to speak some more about these.

After a quick Google I am not really very much wiser, and I'd really like to stop get sucked into what other users spot immediately

DARVO is Deny Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.

So for instance if you remember after speakers Corner a TRA wrote a piece based on their biased interpretation of a poor video of it that Maria McLachlan was the aggressor and a lot of people looked no further than that and assumed she was. When actually with subsequent footage, the fact that Tara Wolf had expressed an intention to cause trouble, and from descriptions by people actually there it was very clear who the victim was. This dynamic is very common in domestic abuse cases where the abuser will often claim to have acted in self defence and that they are the victim.

Or they will deliberately gaslight the victim by claiming that they are "aggressive" or mentally unstable in some way.

Can I piggy back on this and ask what sea lioning refers to? I keep seeing it referenced here and not understood the meaning. I understand what a straw (wo)man is.

I’ve also seen some posts/posters referred to as “seagulls” and slightly confused by that although assumed it had something to do with flocking/attacking.

Coercive control is using emotional tactics to control people. This can include violence and threats of violence as a form of emotional terrorism (my controlling abusive relationship did) but it doesn't have to. Emotional blackmail by threatening self harm/suicide is a common tactic. I think the parallels with transactivists, incels and MRAs are rather obvious here.

Sea lioning is a form of trolling where someone pretends to be listening to you in good faith, and has almost, but not quite understood what you are saying. So the person being sea lioned is worn down by the frustration of having to repeat the same arguments over and over again. And whatever other discussion was happening is normally completely derailed.

And seagull fly into a thread, do a massive shit, and fly off, never to be seen again...

Yes aka "ploppers" a more Mumsnet name!

Haha, ‘ploppers’ I get!

Sealioning sounds like a bit of an own goal around here, as surely it will just leave threads full of well reasoned, very clearly explained, most likely referenced arguments for other people to read, and the sealion just looks like an idiot.

Ah well. This is where prioritising self-care is important when engaging in any kind of activism. Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.

Sealioning sounds like a bit of an own goal around here, as surely it will just leave threads full of well reasoned, very clearly explained, most likely referenced arguments for other people to read, and the sealion just looks like an idiot.

It does, and however frustrating it is for the person being sealioned it's frequently useful for lurkers. Obviously they prefer to bait you into telling them to fuck off

sealion.png

Why Does He DO That is an excellent book for understanding the tactics of abusers.
Some abuse is generational, passed down through the years, like lying to children and the corporal punishment of children. I was shocked when I read Alice Miller that corporal punishment of children was widely popularized in the 1800s through a child raising guide.

I like the sealion cartoon, because its a lot easier to recognise the behaviour from an example than a plain description.
I'm looking for examples of DARVO and the Karpman Drama Triangle (Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer).

This description makes DARVO clear;
changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/darvo.htm

''Two common types of denial are 'It didn't happen' and (if it cannot be denied) then 'It wasn't harmful'.
Attacks can be violent and effectively abusive towards the accuser, with threats of legal action, attacks on credibility and so on.

Example
A person[sic] is accused of rape. When confronted with this, they deny that rape occurred, explaining it as consensual and acting in an outraged, affronted way, painting themselves as a hapless victim, whereas the actual victim with whom they had sex is described as a vindictive person who the accused later rightly spurned after discovering their malicious personality.''

The way sealioning does work though is by fastening onto a point often irrelevant to the actual OP or discussion direction, and because they're "good" at hooking people in, they can actually ruin a good discussion.

So you could start a thread with "why should I get bras from M&S" and end up with
"Why do all feminists hate men" over and over and over. Until everyone gets pissed off.

MRAs and TRAs use DARVO a LOT but not just to derail threads, it's more to do with their inherent emotional position. So it shows up on Twitter and on here but also overall movements when they get together and talk amongst themselves.

We hate you. We justify it and blame you. We lie to make you look bad. We attack you and say you've attacked us first. We threaten to hurt ourselves if you don't capitulate to what we want. We make you tread with caution and ultimately work to control what you say.

Another variation of the sealion is JAQing off. Just Asking Questions.

Example
A person[sic] is accused of rape. When confronted with this, they deny that rape occurred, explaining it as consensual and acting in an outraged, affronted way, painting themselves as a hapless victim, whereas the actual victim with whom they had sex is described as a vindictive person who the accused later rightly spurned after discovering their malicious personality.''

This is what we experience on a class level every time rape is discussed and men change the subject to false claims of rape destroying men's lives.

This is what we experience on a class level every time rape is discussed and men change the subject to false claims of rape destroying men's lives.

^ YES

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I guess knowing more about your starting point would help me to understand exactly what you looking for and if you have received it from the wise commentators who have already spoken on this thread.

I guess that I have seen threads that go pearshaped, and someone comes on and says DARVO etc, and it's also been mentioned that trolls & MRAs follow certain well worn patterns that are also apparent in abusive relationships.

I'd like to be able to be one of the posters who spots these patterns as they arrive , rather than getting sucked in and getting played IYSWIM.

After reading through this thread I feel I am a bit more aware, although with things like the rape example mentioned above, while an individual does those things (deny, blame etc) I have noticed that media reporting is pretty complicit in this, which is

And that changing minds site is great!

I’m very proud of myself, just identified sealioning on Twitter

Woman tweets about women leaving Labour due to sexism/misogyny. Brocialist replies all about Tory enabling, ignores anything about misogyny within the party and ends with “You have responded to reasonable statements with aggression and disrespect.”

Textbook! I feel like I’ve graduated some kind of feminist comprehension test lol

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thx for the background. Yes media are very complicit as they verbally abuse women all the time by their phrasing that dismisses, belittles or plain lies about women (e.g. she contributed to her rape etc)

@Cwenthryth Great - you're onto it!!

I've just put up a post re verbal abuse that you might fine useful- titled Online trolling/ harassment - it details the different forms of verbal abuse used by trolls as well as abusers irl. Also this website details the different types of trolls - I note they use "she" in some examples. Whilst not downplaying the female trolls, most are male.

It was me that made the seagull comparison on a thread a week or so ago on a thread where we had a particularly disruptive, persistent troll. It wasn’t about flying in and shitting on things - that’s a plopper. I was making the point that, if you feed a seagull the odd chip, pretty soon you have an emboldened seagull that turns up and hassles you every time you want to eat your chips in peace (ie: have a sensible FWR chat) because its getting what it wants/needs. You also run the risk of attracting more seagulls by feeding the first one, even though you didn’t intend for your initial kind deed to open you up to persistent chip raiding.

@boatyardblues

I love your analogy to seagulls and chips - spot on. That's my fear - we end up getting harassed off the beach by the flock of seagulls/sealions… Because the one thing I know about trolls is they flock together - like all pests - there's never just one.

How did you signal the sealioning?

I was making the point that, if you feed a seagull the odd chip, pretty soon you have an emboldened seagull that turns up and hassles you every time you want to eat your chips in peace (ie: have a sensible FWR chat) because its getting what it wants/needs.

This is so true. And closely related to the person who wants narcissistic supply rather than to make productive contributions to discussions. Such people will constantly nudge conversations so that they are still technically on topic but with a subtly shifted focus onto them as individuals. Drives me mad - and once you notice the pattern you can't un-notice it.

Drives me mad - and once you notice the pattern you can't un-notice it.

Agreed. That's why you occasionally see a post now referring to seagulls.

And closely related to the person who wants narcissistic supply rather than to make productive contributions to discussions. Such people will constantly nudge conversations so that they are still technically on topic but with a subtly shifted focus onto them as individuals. Drives me mad - and once you notice the pattern you can't un-notice it.

Yep I agree - that's my issue - that by entertaining their subtle shifts, step by step they erode our boundaries whilst they get their feed. What came to mind was to feed them chips heavily laden with wasabi ;)