Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

"you are saying it is absolutely everything." no one has said that. It is relevant only where biology is relevant.

"I don’t think there is any scope for agreement." There is room for accommodation but TEAs like most males don't like to lose. While the trans agenda is driven by males, I fear it will be this way.

What do your trans men friends really think?

Here’s a lovely article about how no one has the right to sex.

Except of course if you’re a trans person in which case anyone who doesn’t sleep with you is a bigot.

www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n06/amia-srinivasan/does-anyone-have-the-right-to-sex

Tell the arsehole TRAs you're endorsing that then.

Not endorsing TRAs and never said I was. Not everyone who does not support your stance is a TRA or anti-women or pro-violence or whatever. I am not. I believe both sides need to compromise. Trans people by accepting the exceptions under the EA and GC people by accepting that other than the exceptions, trans people will be treated as their acquired gender and there is no right to misgender them in the name of truth and free speech etc.

The effort to make them mean the same does not make them mean the same.

Not if you personally define them differently because you take a different stance to the law, no.

Sorry, that's a bridge too far. They're male. I'm not going to accept an Orwellian belief system.

So you think lesbians have the right to say trans women are Male so they aren’t attracted to them?

They have the right to not be attracted to them, of course. Do they need to tell them it is because they are male? Doesn't this happen on a case by case basis anyway (ie lesbian is asked out by trans woman and says no)? Do I have the right to say I am not attracted to someone because they are black or because they are not able bodied? I have no duty to be attracted to them but surely by telling them why, I am being a huge arsehole?

They need to come to terms with the fact that they are male.

I’m straight. Am I being an arsehole if a woman asks me out and I say ‘no sorry I’m straight’

"Trans people by accepting the exceptions under the EA"

So trans people have to accept something already in law?

"GC people by accepting that other than the exceptions, trans people will be treated as their acquired gender and there is no right to misgender them in the name of truth and free speech etc."

Do you mean people with a GRC or do you mean any make chi chooses to self id?

People are confused because they have written a law using words incorrectly with regard to the way they are generally understood and previously defined in case law.
They are playing by Humpty Dumpty language rules. People all over the country are confused by this and when they understand they ar calling bullshit.
Dismiss them if you will but it is not I who has deviated from the law. It is this law that has deviated from the norm and previous law.

Do they need to tell them it is because they are male?

Yes, if you don't think it's right that they should, you are a homophobe.

@allymcbeagle thanks for the clarification on right to privacy law earlier!

Lesbians have had to fight so hard to prove that female same sex attraction is a valid orientation, it’s so disheartening to see that once again the same shit has wormed its way out of the woodwork.

Sorry, that's a bridge too far. They're male. I'm not going to accept an Orwellian belief system.

And that's partly why there probably will not be compromise. Although obviously gender reassignment has been legal a long time and nobody called it Orwellian then. I find it hard to believe that the thing that makes it so different is whether a doctor signs off a certificate or not. You say it's a mental illness in any event. Surely in your view it's Orwellian whether or not someone has gender dysphoria? And the fact that you don't misgender your trans allies (and don't say it's politeness because at the same time you say pronouns are merely factual descriptors and no trans person should take offence if you don't use their preferred ones).

I’m straight. Am I being an arsehole if a woman asks me out and I say ‘no sorry I’m straight’

No. That's unlikely to upset anyone is it? Saying 'no because you are a MAN' when a person strongly believes they are not and tell everyone they are a woman seems a bit harsh. There's countless testimony from trans people that it upsets them (yes, yes, no right not to be upset...) so is it really necessary? I mean you can say it, but don't be surprised if they don't like hearing that. Same as it might be factually true from someone to not fancy me because I have a fat arse or something but I am going to be pretty annoyed if they tell me that to my face.

They have the right to not be attracted to them, of course. Do they need to tell them it is because they are male?
Happens frequently. They even make movies tropes about male enamored of Lesbian. In the real world most males respond to a woman telling them no thanks I am not attracted to males with a simple ok and a bit of resentment and complaining to buddies that all the cute ones are Lesbians.
So you are making the usual argument that transgender identified males are a special class of men who must be treated very carefully else they will be harmed by material reality.

Must get some work done. Speak to you all later.

I really meant that about asking trans men what they think. Try and talk to them away from the trans women. If you want to build bridges you are going to need to start somewhere.

I was all for trans rights until I heard about self id and a trans woman told me "Trans women are women", and that a male rapist who identified as a woman belonged in a female jail.

So now my bridge building skills are fucked because all I can think is - is my daughter going to be forced to change with boys at high school, and is my lesbian niece going to get pressurised by the likes Riley K Denis, and will I be punched in the face if I go to a women's meeting.

The trans 'movement' has shot itself in the foot! Alienating women was the worst move possible.

Now I am left with no alternative but to apologize for my part in the derailing of this thread.
Criminy!

Ahhhhh so women have to pretend that lesbianism doesn’t exist in case it hurts a mans feelings.

Got it.

I find it hard to believe that the thing that makes it so different is whether a doctor signs off a certificate or not.

You're right. I don't agree with the GRA. But at least they're acknowledging the mental health issue. I don't support their claim to female spaces, no. But I certainly don't support the claim of any other male to female spaces.

So trans people have to accept something already in law?

Yes.

Do you mean people with a GRC or do you mean any make chi chooses to self id?

Self-ID does not mean that any Tom Dick or Harry can say he is a woman one day and a man the next. It means he does not need a medical diagnosis to say he feels female (ie he does not have to tell a doctor who then signs a form saying he feels female). He can simply certify that he does. He then gets a GRC which has an application fee and involves swearing a stat dec to say that you intend to live as a woman for the rest of your life.

Self-ID is not a day to day thing, it is for a process that quite few trans people actually undertake anyway. I doubt there will be a huge upsurge in the numbers of GRCs issued (just as there have not been in the other countries that have it).

So yes, I mean people with a GRC though I would hope people would be polite generally to fellow citizens and use preferred pronouns and respect their identities and things.

Same as it might be factually true from someone to not fancy me because I have a fat arse or something but I am going to be pretty annoyed if they tell me that to my face.

Hahaha you think that's the same as a lesbian woman telling a man she's not into men?

Ahhhhh so women have to pretend that lesbianism doesn’t exist in case it hurts a mans feelings

Sigh. Maybe take it up with some of the lesbians who support self-ID and ask them how they possibly manage to overcome what you clearly think is an absolutely insurmountable problem.

I am off to bed now.

Supporting self id and thinking a man can be a lesbian is two completely different things.

Sigh. Maybe take it up with some of the lesbians who support self-ID and ask them how they possibly manage to overcome what you clearly think is an absolutely insurmountable problem.

Perhaps you'd better take up your burning cause with the many lesbians who don't support it?