Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

Sorry.
Male bodied person.

Sigh. Maybe take it up with some of the lesbians who support self-ID and ask them how they possibly manage to overcome what you clearly think is an absolutely insurmountable problem.

Yeah, agree that you can support self ID and still not be convinced that a person with a penis is a woman

Night peak....i dont think we disagree half as much as it probably appears

No, lesbians are not being "huge arseholes" by telling males that they're not attracted to them because they're male. The males are being huge arseholes by assuming that lesbians will be attracted to them because they think they're women.

Hope that helps.

Yeah night night peak

I agree with Rufus.

And the fact that you don't misgender your trans allies (and don't say it's politeness because at the same time you say pronouns are merely factual descriptors and no trans person should take offence if you don't use their preferred ones).

The only trans allies I have don't expect me to gaslight myself. And if they did they wouldn't be my allies.

I never call males "she" or "women."

We try to talk about women's rights on a Feminist forum because we are concerned about changes in law that affect us and it is invariably reframed to be about men's rights or transgender males rights.
Please start a thread of your own on whatever subject you wish rather than trying to insist the women on this thread talk about men's and transgenders rights instead of women's rights.

But who gets to define what feminism is and what is its legitimate aims? Some of the definitions and views expressed on this forum are not necessarily representative of the current wider community of feminists or feminist thinking.

"Feminist: the person who believes in the social political and economic equality of the sexes" - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

“One of the ways in which things have changed is that there’s a segment of men who have really proven they can be allies of feminists. If you try to promote politics that say men are the problem, and women have to organize as women and create women-only spaces, I don’t think you’d find a lot of supporters these days.”
Meg Luxton, (professor of gender and women’s studies, University of Toronto).

“I think transgender women are like the radical feminists of the ’60s — they’re provoking us and making us think about gender in another way,” she says.“I’m looking forward to seeing what the trans feminists are going to make available to us.” Barbara Crow (dean and associate vice-president of graduate studies at York University at the time).

I'm not claiming to be particularly knowledgeable about Luxton but I have assumed she is a natal female, not trans female (using my special inbuilt highly tuned trans-radar system that we all have) socialistproject.ca/leftstreamed-video/ls314/
There are also videos of Crow around.

Feminist: the person who believes in the social political and economic equality of the sexes

Note that word SEXES

But who gets to define what feminism is and what is its legitimate aims?
Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
The meaning has not changed but in the same way that men are trying to make sex and gender indistinguishable so did they try to make feminism mean equality for men during the backlash.
12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

Not attempting to deny other women opinions that you don't agree with is another basic feminist principle that seems to have passed you by, Supermatch.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
The meaning has not changed but in the same way that men are trying to make sex and gender indistinguishable so did they try to make feminism mean equality for men during the backlash.

Nah, not talking about men. I'm talking about women as in natal females' defining feminism. One thing I have learned in the last few months is that this forum is certainly not at the cutting edge of contemporary feminist thought.

@PeakPants

"Self-ID does not mean that any Tom Dick or Harry can say he is a woman one day and a man the next." Who has said it means that? Not me.

"It means he does not need a medical diagnosis to say he feels female (ie he does not have to tell a doctor who then signs a form saying he feels female). He can simply certify that he does."

And where is the validity in that? We are back to my uncle who thinks he is brain surgeon, would I be crazy to take his word for it? No, not if I just said OK yeah Dr Greyhound! Yes, if I let him operate on my brain!

"He then gets a GRC which has an application fee and involves swearing a stat dec to say that you intend to live as a woman for the rest of your life."

What does it mean to live as a woman. It is clearly demonstrated on this thread we are all struggling to actually define what a woman is, if we ignore biology, so how will this person 'live as a woman'.

"Self-ID is not a day to day thing" Who has said it is? Not me.

"it is for a process that quite few trans people actually undertake anyway. I doubt there will be a huge upsurge in the numbers of GRCs issued (just as there have not been in the other countries that have it)."

There will not need to be. People will not need to bother. They will just do what they want, go where they want, and no one will ever challenge them. They will be in all the places that natal females expect to find only other women and we will not be able to challenge anyone's presence. How do you not see this?

"So yes, I mean people with a GRC" No you do not, you are describing self id not GRC as it currently exists.

" ...though I would hope people would be polite generally to fellow citizens and use preferred pronouns and respect their identities and things." I;d like to think males would not presume to put themselves in places where they embarrass and distress natal females but I guess I'm going to get disappointed there!

However, I am one of those people who does use preferred pronouns. Or I'd just avoid using a pronoun altogether, it's quite easy to do.

But it's interesting that your main concern is what pronoun is used.

Anyone whose response to someone else saying "I'm not interested in sex or a relationship with you" is "why not? you ought to be because..." is being a huge arsehole. The remains the case even if the person saying no is doing so because of some sort of prejudice. Because trying to push an unwilling person into having sex with you is rape, if you succeed. And shitty behavior even if you fail.

"Self-ID does not mean that any Tom Dick or Harry can say he is a woman one day and a man the next." Who has said it means that? Not me.

A police officer for one who identifies as genderfluid and is covered by the EA and GRA. He requires that he be treated as a woman on the days he identifies as one and a man on the days he identifies as one.
All self ID will do is make it so anyone can take his fetish to work without getting fired.

not at the cutting edge of contemporary feminist thought.

As "contemporary" seems to mean gender saturated drivel in your mind we really don't find that surprising. Keep your cutting edge all to yourself.

But who gets to define what feminism is and what is its legitimate aims?

Nobody with a penis or a prostate?

Nobody with a penis or a prostate?*

This ^^

Can't these transbian types just have one of these newfangled sexualities instead of appropriating the one for female homosexuals? I mean, there are enough of them. Surely one would do?

Given that many of us are concerned that some of those on the "cutting edge" may escalate to the use of an actual cutting edge that's a rather unfortunate analogy, Supermatch.

this forum is certainly not at the cutting edge of contemporary feminist thought.

Once again for the slow of understanding - everyone has the right to say no to sex, to anyone, at any time. If someone says no to you then you of course have the right to feel hurt and go pout for a bit, but if you attempt to override their "no" then you're on your way to being a rapists, and if you try to use social justice ideas to do it you're a fairly despicable person and an embarrassment to whatever justice movement you've decided to appropriate in order to get laid more easily.

this forum is certainly not at the cutting edge of contemporary feminist thought.
True. There are only a handful of feMANists here, thank the FSM and Ceiling Cat.

Not sure how bile can be patronizing, given that it lacks a brain and the ability to speak...