Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

For all intents and purposes they are the same here.
The effort to make them mean the same does not make them mean the same.

But hey, that's not my fight, that's one for Still (if she ever misses me enough to come back). I was simply making the point that not all lesbians agree - clearly.

Why is it remotely relevant what one person thinks?

After all the effort and all the years of struggle by the L&G the harm done by transgender advocates to turn the sexual orientation of women into a gender identity is painful to watch.

@SupermatchGame "It's about how people live their lives and how we as a society treat people equitably and fairly and take a pragmatic stance when the rights of different groups come into conflict."

By the looks of things the stance you want to take is that gender (which is amorphous and has little bearing on life) trumps biological sex (which is easily definited and which impacts life largely).

Why?

How do people live their lives as females if they are not biologically female?

The only cross over I can see (shared by women and all trans people) is that if they are perceived as female they will possibly be treated on sexist or misogynistic ways by males.

If trans women have a GRC they will be able to live their life and I expect many, especially women, will respect them.

However, if they appear on the internet with their beard and skirt telling us they are widening the bandwidth of being female; or appear in our medical room with their stubble to perform a smear when a female nurse was requested; or appear on our TV winning 'Woman of the Year' and saying the hardest thing is knowing what to wear - we will not respect them or treat them as women.

But we do not do what natal males do to trans women and women, so why is the continual cry from the trans lobby anout women, and why is it not to do something about male violence?

the thing they don’t all agree with you on is that trans women should be excluded from every single female space. And there are many many lesbians who believe that trans women should be treated as women for all intents and purposes. The head of Stonewall for instance. That does not mean that she is not a lesbian just because she doesn’t agree with you.

There is nothing incompatible with a lesbian wanting trans women to have access to women’s services, be addressed as she/her and standing on all women’s shortlists. As I said, nobody believes that trans women are chromosomally female. But to say that if lesbians support trans rights they aren’t proper lesbians is all kinds of wrong.

Sorry.... some natal males...

the thing they don’t all agree with you on is that trans women should be excluded from every single female space

Funnily enough that's also a concern of heterosexual and bisexual women too. Most of us don't want men in our sex segregated spaces thanks.

But to say that if lesbians support trans rights they aren’t proper lesbians is all kinds of wrong

Who said that?

@PeakPants I believe you are misrepresenting there. That part of the discussion was not about trans women's rights but about people who sleep with trans women but identify as lesbian. You still may not agree but I believe that was the point being made.

Plus which women's services do trans women need that trans men or natal men do not need (e.g. services which anyone might need)?

Oh and if the answer includes the words 'inferring' 'implying' or 'insinuating' then I'm not bothered

It’s not about excluding them from every women’s space, it’s about excluding them from certain spaces where we need it to be segregated by sex.
And one of those spaces is inside a lesbians pants.

You will always find some people on twitter spouting rubbish. Lots of people still believe the earth is flat.
Normal educated people recognise that someone can be born in a male body but feel that this does not match their identity and make changes to their body in order to resemble the opposite sex. They can change gender legally and have F put in their passport. They are saying biology is not absolutely everything. You are saying it is absolutely everything. I don’t think there is any scope for agreement.

I just wanted to clarify because the argument often seems to be that those who want trans ppl to have rights are idiots with no grasp of biology. Just wanted to point out that yes I do grasp biology but obviously do not afford it the same importance as you do in terms of whether I call a person he or she.

@PeakPants I believe you are misrepresenting there

Or making shit up

trans ppl to have rights are idiots with no grasp of biology

And again

No one said this

I want trans people to have rights...why wouldn't i?

Normal educated people recognise that someone can be born in a male body but feel that this does not match their identity and make changes to their body in order to resemble the opposite sex.

Agree

(Which feels weird)

Normal educated people recognise that someone can be born in a male body but feel that this does not match their identity

Yes and they recognise it's a mental health issue.

Teacup as far as I am aware people have the absolute right to choose who they sleep with. So of course they need to keep out of a lesbian’s pants. Just as heterosexual women don’t have an obligation to date or sleep with men of all races or the fact that that people do not have to sleep with ppl with disabilities unless they want to. Allowing people to have rights does not mean having to sleep with them.

Just wanted to point out that yes I do grasp biology but obviously do not afford it the same importance as you do in terms of whether I call a person he or she.

Good for you. But I think women's rights are important.

Teacup as far as I am aware people have the absolute right to choose who they sleep with.

Tell the arsehole TRAs you're endorsing that then.

The pattern of behavior is exhausting.
We try to talk about women's rights on a Feminist forum because we are concerned about changes in law that affect us and it is invariably reframed to be about men's rights or transgender males rights.
Please start a thread of your own on whatever subject you wish rather than trying to insist the women on this thread talk about men's and transgenders rights instead of women's rights.

Great we agree.

So you think lesbians have the right to say trans women are Male so they aren’t attracted to them?

Because lots of people don’t think that, and think that’s transphobic.

Did you read the article that posted a couple of days ago about ‘does anyone have the right to sex?’

@Juzza12 yes I completely agree some trans women do think They really are female. I have heard it lots. The fact others may not suggests the trans women they meet think they completely agree so do not bother to argue the point.

Interestingly, the transsexuals I have spoken to on line do seem to understand because they have been on a long journey to transition. They ate also sometimes anti self id as the things they worked for will be negated. Plus they seem to be hsts attracted to males. So not involved in the lesbian community ) if such a thing still exists).

(Did you see the Stonewall Lesbian day of visibility video?)

Just as this thread was started to avoid a derail I hope that those who consider males to be Lesbians will start their own to avoid derailing this one any further.