Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

If a natal female transitioned at 18 and then as a trans man went on to look/ sound like a man with a beard etc as he goes through his 20s and 30s, would his career progression be due to him being treated as a man or a woman

Can a natal female hide their sex and therefore avoid discrimination based on sex? Yes, probably - unless you want to become pregnant and then you are open to all the discrimination associated with having a female reproductive system.

Do you think that if someone transitions early enough, in their teens say, that they would be treated as their acquired sex or natal sex for career progression? Do you mean things like all women short lists etc?

What do you think about this person being given a top 50 women in finance award for expressing his female side? Because this is how far it is being taken?

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3051982-top-50-women-role-models-gender-fluid

If a natal female transitioned at 18 and then as a trans man went on to look/ sound like a man with a beard etc as he goes through his 20s and 30s, would his career progression be due to him being treated as a man or a woman

They would still have been socialised as a girl in very formative years and they’d have still had to deal with a female body and reproductive system even if they way to deal with it is to have a mastectomy and hysterectomy, these are both female experiences.

I don’t think there’s a concrete answer to this to be honest.

SupermatchGame career progression is an issue for women not because of how they look but because of their biology and their socialisation. As transmen are female, if they want to have a baby, they would suffer the same discrimination as any other woman getting pregnant. And as they were socialised female, they would suffer from the drawbacks of that socialisation.

There's actually research into the issue that shows there is no statistically significant difference in the earnings of F2M transsexuals before and after they transitioned.

M2F transsexuals do however suffer an earnings disparity, showing higher earnings before they come out as trans, falling to its lowest just before their final surgery and then rising again (but not to its previous level which the researchers hypothesised might be due to those individuals changing jobs).

Please note the researchers only studied post-op transsexuals.

jellyfrizz Acknowledge gender identity for pronouns and other stuff where sex doesn't really matter, segregate by sex where it does; toilets, prisons,

You mean places where segregation based on natal sex could cause significant risk to trans women? Trans women who share many if not most of the same vulnerabilities as natal women?

@Bloodmagic "Hafthor Bjornsson's body" post.

Excellent.

Trans women who share many if not most of the same vulnerabilities as natal women?

which vulnerabilities do they share?

You mean places where segregation based on natal sex could cause significant risk to trans women? Trans women who share many if not most of the same vulnerabilities as natal women?

Which vulnerabilities would those be?

Here's the survey charleyparley is referring to, the discrimination post op follows the acquired sex. Causation can't be inferred however as career changes could be involved as it is based on Dutch tax receipts, not like for like jobs.

ftp.iza.org/dp9077.pdf

Charlie it's also an issue for women because they are often trivialised in the work place. Or because of their socialisation may not feel empowered to be assertive.

A trans man that transitioned early enough may never be able to get pregnant. He may marry a woman who does, while his career takes off. Because he looks and sounds like a man he will have received many of the privileges society affords men.

That's where you lose us Supermatchgame.

Which vulnerabilities would those be?

You seriously don't know why a woman would be vulnerable to men?

SupermatchGame I wasn't asking you not to discuss whether you believe a man can ever turn himself into an actual woman by medically transitioning, I was merely pointing out that this is irrelevant to the question of self-id. Because self-id is for those who have no gender dysphoria and who therefore do not wish to medically transition.

To have gender dysphoria (as is always pointed out to us in the transkids threads) means meeting very strict criteria that must include abhorrence and disgust at one's own sexed body which can only be alleviated - or so we are told - by medically transitioning.

Is it one thing for kids and one for adults? Or is it that TRAs pick whichever arguments suit them? Advocate to medically transition kids as early as possible because it is the only way to help them (and amongst other things to be able to construct a narrative that claims that all transadults were once transkids) and then argue that medically transitioning is so passé, you transphobe, don't you know you don't have to have GD to be trans, it's not an illness, we don't need the doctors. Which is it?

This is for you Supermatchgame

Trousersdontmakemeaman What do you think about this person being given a top 50 women in finance award for expressing his female side? Because this is how far it is being taken?

What do you think I think? Reductio ad absurdum. (You do that a lot). That isn't what we mean by transitioned woman is it.

You seriously don't know why a woman would be vulnerable to men?

Two reasons for sex segregation in prisons.

1. To avoid pregnancy
2. Likelihood of men dominating women because of their greater body strength.

That isn't what we mean by transitioned woman is it

Except according to guidance from Stonewall, it is.

You mean exactly like you do Trousers.

Umbrella? Cross dressing/gender fluid?.

Female means male and female, male means female and male?

I don't know SMG. There is a point where this is stretched so far as to be no longer plausible to women.

We are at that point.

We have been excluded from even being permitted to discuss where the line is.

There is no line. Everything has to be accepted. Celebrated.

It's not going down well with people here.

Trans women who share many if not most of the same vulnerabilities as natal women?

Me: Which vulnerabilities would those be?

You seriously don't know why a woman would be vulnerable to men

I don't know the vulnerabilities trans women share which is why I asked.

That isn't what we mean by transitioned^ woman is it.^

Funny that trans organisations mean that though, isn't it?

2) Likelihood of men dominating women because of their greater body strength.

Great. Got there eventually.

Except according to guidance from Stonewall, it is.

In the words of that great champion of equality and frequent poster on this forum, RosenbergW: Who the f*ck are Stonewall?

Never attempted to speak for trans organisations.

Forgive me for being concerned about what they think, given that they set government and organisational policy.

She means women.

Stonewall are Government advisers? Corporate advisers?

The organisation imposing this.