Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

There really needs to be clear blue water between gender identity and sex

Yes and corresponding nouns when talking about categories of people so we all know what we are talking about!

But that is just arguing for the right of some people who pass and identify with a binary gender to hide the fact that they are trans. Why should there be stigma attached to being trans? How does this help people who don't want to identify as any gender? It's accepting discrimination rather than fighting discrimination.

^^ This.

The GRA does nothing to fight trans discrimination.

What rights do people who don’t identify as any gender need that they don’t have now?

I dunno teacup, the same ones as the people identifying as any gender I suppose.

I personally don't see what gender identity has got to do with anything other than for that person. I think people should be treated well whatever they look like or identify as.

People who reject the gender binary still have a sexed body.

So why can’t they use the facilities that correlate with their sex?

Surely their fight is to break down the idea of gender norms in society and for it to be acceptable for people of sex to have whatever personality they like. (Hello gender critical feminism).

I agree teacup, sex is nothing to do with gender identity.

I'm just pointing out that the GRA doesn't actually help trans people because it does nothing to fight discrimination. It just allows people to hide there natal sex. I personally don't think being trans is anything to be ashamed of or something to have to hide.

*their

I think people should be treated well whatever they look like or identify as.

So do I, but I don’t see how ‘being treated well’ means being able to self id into the opposite sex.
Should they be able to live a life without harassment or discrimination? Hell yeah!
Should they be able to dress how they like, call themselves what they like, express themselves how they like? Hell yeah!

Should they be able to enter the safe spaces of women just because they ‘feel like a woman’ that day? Errrrm no.

I’ll repeat my question again, why would anyone who doesn’t have dysphoria need to legally transition?

I don’t think having a GRC hides many trans people’s natal sex.

I do think it’s important in treating the symptoms of gender dysphoria though.

What rights do people who don’t identify as any gender need that they don’t have now?

The rights you needed by people who get a GRC.

So why can’t they use the facilities that correlate with their sex?

Why can't anyone use the facilities that correlate with their sex?

I do think it’s important in treating the symptoms of gender dysphoria though.

Not helpful if it channels you into a system that insists you have to pick a lane - male gender or female gender.

Surely their fight is to break down the idea of gender norms in society and for it to be acceptable for people of sex to have whatever personality they like.

Yes, it is confusing.

The rights you needed by people who get a GRC.

Well this is for people with dysphoria who feel distress at their own sex and wish to change sex. If you don’t believe you have a gender identity why would you need a GRC?
What would just swapping the sex you belong to achieve?

Why can't anyone use the facilities that correlate with their sex?

Because some people have dysphoria and using the facilities correlating with their sex brings them great distress so rightly or wrongly we have created a provision to facilitate them.

Not helpful if it channels you into a system that insists you have to pick a lane - male gender or female gender.

I don’t think you do have to pick a lane, gender is bullshit, be whatever personality you like.
We do need certain sex based provisions though.

I do think it’s important in treating the symptoms of gender dysphoria though.

How so?

Because there is lots of evidence that people with severe gender dysphorias distress is lessened when they transition.

Taking the GRC away is not on the table and I can’t see how it would ever be up for debate to be honest.

What’s in front of us now is self id and as the GRC seems here to stay for the foreseeable future I would like us to mantain the safeguarding that is in place already.

Because there is lots of evidence that people with severe gender dysphorias distress is lessened when they transition.

You don't need a GRC to transition.

If you don’t believe you have a gender identity why would you need a GRC?

To recognise that you don't identify as male or female. It's possible to feel dysphoric but not identify as the opposite sex.

Because some people have dysphoria and using the facilities correlating with their sex brings them great distress so rightly or wrongly we have created a provision to facilitate them.

Again, you are assuming that gender dysphoria means that you identify with the opposite sex.

I don’t think you do have to pick a lane, gender is bullshit, be whatever personality you like.
We do need certain sex based provisions though.

Completely agree. However, Stonewall don't. My point is that in an ideology where gender is all important, a GRC that only recognises 2 genders doesn't help people who don't identify as either. I don't know what the end game is supposed to be - no GRC necessary?

Not socially you don’t but you need it for changing birth certificate etc

But with no GRC we let go of any tiny scrap of safeguarding that we have now.

Whats the alternative to have a million different genders that people can identify into? Well how’s that going to keep women safe? How’s that’s going to work practically? I run a business, how many toilets am I going to need?

There is never going to be a system that keeps everyone happy but the GRC as it stands now is the nearest thing to a compromise that it’s possible to get.

I don't know what the end game is supposed to be - no GRC necessary?

This worries me too. The logical endpoint is to do away with sex-based segregation altogether. As Teacuphiccup says, you could never have sufficient categories to seggregate by all possible genders, so you just wouldn't segregate.

MsBeaujangles "I would be happy with have a category that is inclusive of sex and gender identity for all circumstances where sex is not a significant variable. But where it is, we need to distinguish between the two."

"Some examples: victim of crime statistics, career progression, longevity of life etc, etc, etc."

Do you think that if someone transitions early enough, in their teens say, that they would be treated as their acquired sex or natal sex for career progression? Do you mean things like all women short lists etc?

If a natal female transitioned at 18 and then as a trans man went on to look/ sound like a man with a beard etc as he goes through his 20s and 30s, would his career progression be due to him being treated as a man or a woman by those around him who have only ever known him as a man for decades? How would we deal with these cases? Does it depend on how early they transitioned? Or what they look like?

Acknowledge gender identity for pronouns and other stuff where sex doesn't really matter, segregate by sex where it does; toilets, prisons, sports etc.

A person's sex shouldn't matter except for the circumstances where biology matters.

Yet this is not who is pushing self-id.

Yes I get that Charlie. There is concern that a man could just 'dress up' as a woman for a weekend and gain access to female only spaces. etc.

So as intellectually interesting as it might be to explore how and in what way an M2F transsexual could be considered to be a woman, it's entirely irrelevant to the self-id debate.

It is. But discussion here isn't just about self Id. It's also about whether a person can and/ or should 'change sex' or what that means, or if a trans woman is really a woman and should they ever be treated as such by law. It isn't just a 'we oppose self-id' forum.

This is isn’t an anything concrete forum I think there’s a range of views.

Though I don’t think many people think trans women literally change sex, do they?