Liz Truss MP breaks cover: backs MN

[RedToothBrush]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5642853/Cabinet-minister-prompts-transgender-row-backing-Mumsnet-users.html
Cabinet minister prompts transgender row after backing Mumsnet users 'leading backlash against militant activists'

That's a total if THREE Trans stories in the Mail on Sunday online dated with the 21st/22nd April.

This is Truss's tweet from 4 days ago

Elizabeth Truss @ trussliz
I enjoy a heated debate with @MumsnetTowers on childcare and I hail her for her approach to free speech. #openminded #freemums
With link to Kirkup's spectactor article.

The original tweet only got about a dozen replies, 24 retweets and a 105 likes.

Cursed E was one of the few responders.

Who's Maria Mac?

Violence is absolute imo, you can't commit "literal violence" by disagreeing with someone. Some MTF trans women think they are the same as women. I disagree. I'm not physically hurting them by saying that and im not inciting anyone to physically hurt them. Im not preventing them from doing what they want to do or discriminating against them in terms of employment or other life chances. My opinion doesnt change the way I interact with them. I treat everybody with the same respect. I'm simply disagreeing with them.

Same as when my 5y old says "yes mummy, your bum does look big in that," he's not being literally violent towards me.

Maria MacLachlan, I presume you mean, was the subject of actual physical violence surely?

Yes. Literal violence.

Literal: taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or exaggeration

'Literal' is still widely understood in the real world to mean the opposite of figurative - that's presumably why activists like to misuse it.

I just read through that and you can pick out the techniques that are being used, really interesting, thanks. Now we need to think about the best ways of countering them. I guess the staying on message thing maybe, just keep repeating "Difference of opinion is not violence", "There is no such thing as literal violence"

Calling out what they are doing is useful. "Thanks for that example of ad hominem propaganda technique."
Then pose a question not your opinion.

The point is to promote critical thinking not to tell people what to think. If what you are saying holds merit and the power of the truth, then let people find their own way to that.

Breaking cults and rescuing members is based on the concept of the promotion of critical thinking. To aim a question at the tiniest amount of doubt in belief of the ideology. To get people to start asking questions again when they are conditioned to resist critical thought - or indeed debate.

Telling people what to think also tends to make people recoil from you, as it can be taken as telling someone they are stupid or judgemental even if that was not the intent. Give people the tools to break free of the authoritarianism showing itself instead.

I never ever imagined I'd end up doing this, but I've got into the habit of emailing Conservative MPs — Anna Soubry, David Davies, now Liz Truss — to thank them whenever they support women's rights. Because let's be honest, Labour, the LibDems and the Greens have thrown us under a bus.

The world has turned upside down. I'm quoting articles in the Spectator and the Daily Mail and the Times and I'm writing thank-you notes to Conservatives. What happened? Am I actually going to have to vote Conservative next?

I feel the same way. It's very strange to now be in the position of feeling like, if a GE was called tommorow, Id be left with the xhouce of abstaining (anathema to me) or voting Conservative. Twitter behaviour from representatives of Labour and the Lib Dems and their stance on self ID mean I really couldn't vote for them. Very strange.

She is giving kudos to Mumsnet who are particularly vicious on this particular front. Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community. She may be a terf in disguise

This is nuts! - Mumsnet is a forum. Anybody can post here. They don't take a view, they just provide a place for discussion.

People express opposing views on all sorts of things - Brexit, the housing crisis, chickens.

Please remember ALL the other things that governments do and please don't vote Tory. I know I know but they're canny and I'd hate them to play this for votes and get another 5 years. Yikes.

Merchfach right there with you

RTB thank you for your posts especially this Calling out what they are doing is useful. "Thanks for that example of ad hominem propaganda technique."
Then pose a question not your opinion.

The point is to promote critical thinking not to tell people what to think

I know, I know. I'll probably abstain, which is weird. What have the Green party said about self ID? Not that it makes any difference, I'm in a Tory safe seat anyway.

I'd hate them to play this for votes and get another 5 years

They can only use this issue to play for votes because other parties are letting them.

This does not speak well of ANY party.

I am well aware that the Cons are doing exactly the same as Trump did in the US with this subject. It is important that people know this.

But it is also important that voters refuse to give their vote to others who continue with this nonsense and are not prepared to listen to concerns if women too. It is ultimately the only thing they will listen to.

Flomper...the greens tlk about non men, so not much hope there.

This is nuts! - Mumsnet is a forum. Anybody can post here. They don't take a view, they just provide a place for discussion.

MNHQ would certainly delete any post which incited violence. Which if they existed would certainly be reported by other users. The truth is, there is no ' group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community' on MN.

#Nodebate is about preventing critical thought. Feminist do critical thought and are villanised. The logical reaction to the attempt to stop critical thought should be to ask a zillion questions. Repeatedly.

Eventually they bite.

We need to be able to speak the truth of wanting to support the human rights of people who are transgender and also ask what about women and girls?

The issue is one of centring... 'TERFs' are being defined & therefore dismissed by the T(trans) E(exculsionary) rather than the radical feminism.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3218213--W-hat-A-bout-W-omen-A-nd-G-irls

Maria Miller's position was discussed here...
"When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

Good on Liz for speaking.

It's about time we had some support from female MPs. Anyone who has seen those videos of the cowards trying to stop the Bristol meeting has seen the tactics of theser fucks.

I think its more important to focus on some of those who exert political power or those who are using the power of social media (especially if connected)
Many of the young people who have bought into what can be a dangerous ideology are victims.
Which is not to condone the behaviour.

We need to be able to speak the truth of wanting to support the human rights of people who are transgender and also ask what about women and girls?

This 100%

Doesn't TERF basically mean someone who cares about the rights and wellbeing of women and girls but who doesn't believe men who say they are are women.

So the people saying it's ok to be violent towards them are basically saying this is who it's ok to curb stomp, punch, choke and smash with bricks etc.

Worth re-reading Jenni Murray's article last year.
“I know that in writing this article I am entering into the most controversial and, at times, vicious, vulgar and threatening debate of our day. I’m diving headfirst into deep and dangerous waters.”
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/490f2f22-fd11-11e6-a451-b5ddf4ba5eec
and response:
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/05/jenni-murray-transgender-not-real-women-sunday-times-magazine

I hadn't realised literal violence meant pretend non physical violence ie not violence at all just a difference of opinion. The word literal has a meaning. Mind you the word woman literally means adult female woman so I guess words and their real meanings aren't TRAs strong point.

Adult female human

Yes. I suspect what they actually mean is 'symbolic violence' which is a concept from Bourdieu. It's an interesting concept, but in hindsight very poorly named, because what the TRAs are doing is saying that symbolic violence is just like physical violence. Both are 'literally violent,' therefore if someone 'misgenders' you it's acceptable to hit them in retaliation.

Which is utter nonsense and not what Bourdieu meant at all.

I find it concerning the way that language and arguments are being appropriated and twisted to confuse people. Like this tweet from a senior TRA/architect of the shit we find ourselves in, referring to our defence of the freedom to name reality as 'Orwellian'.

(The second one is added because it tells an outright lie. Kids as young as 11 can shop online with a visa debit card).