Transing children

[Pratchet]

Brace doctor breaks cover and warns of the dangers

Albadross yes they're small sample sizes. Always will be because it's a small subpopulation.

Your limitations of twin studies are well known. Despite that it doesn't negate the usefulness of twin studies - they are very well regarded still in science, medicine and research.

Stated on the website of the American Psychological Society:
The value of twin studies
Twin researchers acknowledge that these and other limitations exist. But, they say, the limitations don't negate the usefulness of twin studies.

Also

Twin Studies: A Unique Epidemiological Tool 2016 Monalisha Sahu and Josyula G Prasuna
Scholars have long studied twins to address the “nature and nurture” question; however, opposing “nature” to “nurture” is misleading. Genes combine with the environment to produce complex human traits.

Therefore, twin studies will continue to be an important tool along with emerging genome and molecular research methods in shedding light on various aspects of human genetics and on how environmental factors and genetics combine to create human traits and behaviors.

The value of twins in epigenetic epidemiology
Jordana T Bell, Richard Saffery
International Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 41, Issue 1, 1 February 2012.
During past decades, twin studies have played an important role in genetic epidemiology studies of complex traits. The strength of twin studies lies in the ability to disentangle genetic and environmental factors that contribute to a phenotype, by comparing genetically identical monozygotic twins to dizygotic twins, who share on average 50% of genetic variants.

Last one - just found this.
Not sure how 'academic' Scientific American is but I thought this was interesting, and recent.

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?
Imaging studies and other research suggest that there is a biological basis for transgender identity

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

‘ yes they're small sample sizes. Always will be because it's a small subpopulation.’
Think this is also worth highlighting.

@supermatchgame In contrast to GI, ASD and homosexuality are very well understood. Can I take them in turn? With ASD you have focused on rigid thinking which is one of the triad of impairments. I agree that this contributes to the difficulties they can also experience with GI. However, I was drawing to your attention to the other two; social communication and social imagination. I am hypothesising (and I'm wondering why the hell the experts aren't) that since those two prevent toddlers and children from picking up on and responding to social cues they will not internalise other people's gendered expectations of them. They are IMMUNE to gender. As they get older this becomes very confusing because they can see that others FEEL their gender. Indeed other people's brains will, I concede have changed, since brains are plastic, to incorporate those gender identities. They then receive the transgender narratives from people they know and through social media and, particularly if they are undiagnosed, as so many girls are, they think they have the answer that explains the difference. Do you understand therefore what I mean when I sat the coincidence of ASD and GID is EVIDENCE that gender is socially constructed?

Great post Sarah.

SupermatchGame

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -

Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?
2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.
3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)
4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).
5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

And when I say others FEEL their gender I by no means mean everyone and I believe this happens as a result of early socialisation

As they get older this becomes very confusing because they can see that others FEEL their gender.

What does this mean? I have been gradually coming to the conclusion that the only people who have a 'gender identity' are people who identify as transgender. Are you saying that you think that most people do have some sort of internalised feeling of gender?

@supermatchgame "Why would it be ok to try CBT for GID but not sexual orientation? A valid answer could be because GID requires medication and surgery and it would be best to avoid that. I agree. It would be best if anyone could avoid medication and surgery. Ken Zucker has tried that with children though. I actually supported his work. I don't think he was transphobic or homophobic. But I find it odd that in the whole world only one single person was openly trying it. That actually astonishes me... that in recent times there is only a record of one person openly trying to discourage a transgender outcome in children - in the entire world? That must tell us something surely?"

Well firstly if a gay person is experiencing distress and patterns of self loathing I absolutely do think they need CBT to help them develop posit I've thought patterns and if the attitudes of others around them are contributing e.g. Signs of homophobia then again I think there needs to be some family intervention too!

With regard to the second part of your paragraph I refer you to the millenia old way of thinking that we have nothing like shed that I described in my earlier post. The idea that gender is a social construct is fairly new, albeit well evidenced, and it hasn't soaked into wider consciousness at all

Yes @oldcrone definitely. But it IS socially constructed and for most people it conforms to social norms for their gender. Gender critical feminists, however are all, effectively, gender non conforming because we repeatedly question that early socialisation. It is the reason why we are endlessly talking about transgenderism. It threatens our world view, our identity and our cause (to free ourselves and others, including children identified as trans from gender based oppression)

Sarah- your response like so many others’ surprises me in the certainty in which you express your view. You may be right but you may not. And the fallout either way could be immense.
By the way diagnostic assessments are moving away from the triad to dsm v.

There is also evidnece relating to testosterone at different points in utero impacting on Asd. But none of any of this is conclusive. Yet I notice there are not 8 million threads worrying about whether or not asd has genetic or social roots.
It is very hard to determine either for anything. Yet these threads are amazingly full of confidence of cause.

@farfrom I have seen the whole process playing out in my own child, which gives me a level of insight and a clear understanding of the risks. My own heart is at stake. Have I expressed my position too strongly for you?

Sarah - I’m sorry your heart is at steak- there is nothing on earth that compares with that.
I’m sorry I missed that and of course you can express your view as strongly as you like.
My point is about cause for transgender- on these boards posters post as if they know the answers when i am sure they don’t know them.
Clinicians try to help these young people live their lives as best they can. None of this is easy but I’m these boards posters post as if it is.

On

SarahCarer So if they are immune to gender it seems even more strange that they should start to develop a GI that is in conflict with their sex? They can see that they are the same sex as (same sexed) people around them yet they build a narrative that they are not the same? But yes it does indicate a strong social element. There is a strong social element to all aspects of identity as we have agreed. When that identity starts to contradict physical sex - I think something more than just socialisation is going on. Hence the biopsychosocial model.

Sorry if this is oversimplistic - obviously I don't have your knowledge and experience in the area of ASD.

they can see that others FEEL their gender
Yes and despite that they develop a GI that is contrary not only to their sex, but to these
messages they are receiving from others?

They then receive the transgender narratives from people they know and through social media and, particularly if they are undiagnosed, as so many girls are, they think they have the answer that explains the difference.

Yes I can see that this could explain why some some ASD children, particularly with social media/ media, can end up going down the route of thinking GID is an explanation for what they are experiencing. I am also open to the idea that for some ASD individuals there is an underpinning neurological issue that can affect all three impairments and GI. It could also be possible that the three impairments interfere with the development of 'normal' GI and leads to confusion. In some cases this entirely social interference with GI may not actually be typical GID but some other variant specific to ASD individuals.

I agree this greater awareness could lead more young people to seek treatment - especially more likely for children with ASD as they are more vulnerable. The director of the clinic appears very aware of this:

Woman's Hour Interview: There is greater knowledge about specialist gender clinics and the pathways into them, and an increased awareness of the possibilities around physical treatments for young adolescents.
The rise of social media also plays a part as it sponsors a fast developing shared language around gender identity and expression.

I don't think that negates the need for treatment for some people and I don't think it negates the development of GID (as in a GI conflicting with their physical sex) in all children with ASD. I agree it does complicate it though.

I am hypothesising (and I'm wondering why the hell the experts aren't)

I think a lot are exploring, debating and researching it. But you are referring to a subset of what is already an extremely small number ie. 2000 referrals out of the whole country to the clinic. According to ASD magazine:

Between 8 and 10 percent of children and adolescents seen at gender clinics around the world meet the diagnostic criteria for autism

I appreciate not all end up as referrals to the clinic. In part due to the work you have done with your own family. I admire you hugely and it is even more reason why your story should be out there as a role model and to encourage alternative considerations.

on these boards posters post as if they know the answers when i am sure they don’t know them.

That is a bizarre accusation to make.

The point of a public forum is to debate. So if someone says something you don't agree with do as you have done and disagree. Not sure what your point is?

@Terfmore thank you for that. I am not seeking to criticise clinicians necessarily but I do think that the research base for how they are treating patients is woefully inadequate and they seem to acknowledge this. One of the key things informing their approach in my opinion is the idea that transgenderism is the same as homosexuality and that any response other than a complete affirmation of the person's entire narrative around their identity would be harmful. Barraker's post about this up thread is excellent. I am much more inclined to think that the massively entrenched homophobia that is the scurge of our society and which influences a lot of thinking around masculinity actually contributes very much to positivity around trans. I have searched my own heart about whether I would have worked so hard to resist puberty blockers if my dd was a boy. Could I have faced asking him to allow his body to develop into a man knowing he much preferred to wear dresses and makeup? I would have been so afraid that people (in particular other men) would continually reject and vilify him and laugh at him behind his back. I'm bearing my soul here.

SarahCarer - my response was to FarFrom :-)

@supermatchgame thank you for your words of support. My dd has agreed to me writing a blog on autism and gender identity and has said she'll help me with the techy elements so maybe my story will get out there (very anonymously of course to protect her privacy). Perhaps @farfrom can bring me up to speed with the latest terms! By the way some children with autism do see the gender rules to a greater extent than my dd and often interpret them a lot more simplistically than neurotypical children e.g. conforming very strongly to the stereotypes by following those rules as best they can. They may well develop the opposite gender identity as they pursue that line of thought (with ASD level obsessive zeal!).

SarahCarer

for you.

Your questioning and challenging on here, is all the more remarkable and gutsy because of your position.

@Terfmore oops sorry I think mine was meant for @farfrom too! It's getting late

Thanks Datun. Gosh you're a bit of a hero of mine I must admit. And to all the insightful, fierce, intelligent gender critical feminists on FWR I wish I could show you how your words have helped, how happy my dd is (who you wouldn't distinguish from a boy at all at first glance). My reading it all, and then becoming pretty GNC myself has helped her believe the authenticity of the story that you really can be you and there is no mould to fit into. And sometimes society's expectations of you will stink to high heaven and that has to be challenged. And there are others who will stand shoulder to shoulder with you in challenging it.

@supermatchgame l would love to hear of any expert pursuing research into the emergence of gender identity in children with autism in a way that isn't ridiculously begging the question ("extreme male brain theory....I ask you! What absolute pillock came up with that idea).

SarahCarer

There was a specific thread here a few months ago about ASD/GID.

It was something about the fact that, as you say, children with autism are often 'immune' from gender.

But, and I'm trying to remember this correctly, they were almost forcing a gender on these children, in order to find out whether or not they rejected it, and could therefore be classed as transgender.

I've tried to find it since, because it was breathtaking in its shock factor. But I've had no luck. And I've had no luck trying to google it, either.

I don't know if anyone else can remember it, or happened to bookmark it, though?