A Statement on Gender from the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales

[massi71]

catholicnews.org.uk/plenary-april18-gender

I thought this might be interesting to read. As far as I can see it's the only organisation that's openly expressing reservations about the dangers of uncontrolled self ID (I could be wrong though)

Okay HerFemaleness so let's just reject what the Church says despite agreeing with it!!

I don't agree that men and women have different natures. There's a quote in the statement

Today we are faced with an ideology of gender which, in the words of Pope Francis:

'"denies the difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman and envisages a society without sexual difference

The difference and reciprocity in nature. This statement is at odds with a gender critical view point.

Why don't I kick my husband out too while I'm at it!!! After all, he is a man in IT so benefits from the misogynistic shite!!!!

I don't see what this has to do with the ontological subordination of women to men as promoted and preached by most world religions.

Men and women DO have different natures!!! Not due to nature but due to socializing!! We are DIFFERENT!!! Thought everyone on the FWR board knew that!!🤔

I feel like you and me are on the same page but there is a massive miscommunication going on!!

'Today we are faced with an ideology of gender which, in the words of Pope Francis:

'"denies the difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman and envisages a society without sexual difference

The difference and reciprocity in nature. This statement is at odds with a gender critical view point.'

I don't think a gender-critical point of view is at odds with the view that the male sex and female sex are different in nature. I think you're attributing a meaning to the term 'nature' that isn't actually there.

And as for the Church perpetuating the gender hierarchy - if by this you mean that the Church thinks men are better/more important/more valuable than women, you are simply wrong. It doesn't.

True sexual equality will occur when both sexes are equally valued, not when they become the same thing.

Last, I think it sounds more minor when you haven’t been at the sharp end of the Catholic Church......

Anyway, your exhortations won’t make us all agree to set aside all differences so I think you just have accept that.

Chester, I understand your position and respect it.

But this is a feminist board so the question here is whether the church’s view fits with feminism, not vice versa.

Everyone will have different views on that.

The Church itself, of course, as you very honestly pointed out, is not primarily concerned with winning an argument for its own sake.
.

@Wanderabout I think it's this one - sorry if already posted.

"Will you provide any evidence for your statement "Back before feminism kicked off the church would argue that women were just a lesser type of human, inferior in role and inferior in essence"?

Not without writing a book, but thankfully somebody has already done gone and done that. The Gospel According to Women by Karen Armstrong."

That's what's known as a Secondary Source (if I recall my History A-level correctly). I'm not particularly interested in Ms. Armstrong's opinions on the subject. It was Primary Sources, aka evidence to back up your assertion, that I was after. It's very very easy to fling wild and hugely generalised accusations around - clearly more difficult to back them up with hard facts.

I mean to say, I don't believe that all men have one sort of nature, and all women have another sort of nature.

Thanks, I very much appreciate your civility. I do understand why so many feminists jump to the conclusion that the Catholic Church must be anti-woman, if only because of its stance on abortion.

I find it frustrating,though, that so many people stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes in front of many, many examples of strong women throughout the Church's history, whose views were heard and respected, who started Religious Orders which endure to this day, who initiated Christian movements in the 20th Century, who were made Saints, etc etc.

If someone would care to give me their definition of what a 'feminist' is, I'd be interested to see how I match up (I consider myself to be very pro-woman).

HerFemaleness, i don't think that's what he said, is it?

Another way of putting it might be to say that all men have something in common, and all women have something (different) in common.

Sounds like you see yourself as a devout Catholic and feminist Chester!

Yes Amanda, that was the Venn diagram!

The Catholic Church and feminists have common ground in believing sex is real and you don't change sex.

And also that they don't appreciate someone who doesn't believe that forcing others to live their lives according to those beliefs.

I don't feel the need personally to share any other Catholic beliefs but still on this issue am pleased if some Catholics are speaking out.

I wouldn't call myself devout, and I doubt many on this board would allow me to call myself a feminist, even if I wanted to!
I'm a Catholic who knows that the Church is a hospital rather than an exclusive club; I'm pro-woman, and pro-man, and pro-child.

I think you can turn up at the same party as the Catholic Church on this issue.

But I’d have to be wearing one of those “I don’t regret my abortion” t-shirts.

Great way of putting it. See you at the party Thanks. I'll be wearing my 'Sex is real (and that's why I use condoms) t-shirt.

Chester

G'night, all.

Good night from me.

@chesterbelloc you're sea-lioning.

I had to look up "What is sea-lioning?", as it's not a term I've encountered before. This is - honestly! - the first thing that came up:

"Nobody really knows.

It's basically "civilly requesting evidence" when someone says something terrible about you, but they judge the civility as disingenuous and would rather say you're "sealioning" them instead of providing evidence that the terrible thing they said about you was true."

https://amp.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/2zlyad/whatiss_sealioning/

www.quora.com/What-is-sealioning

A Sealion is a person who, when confronted with a fact that they don't care to acknowledge, say, the persistence of systemic racism in America, will ask endlessly for "proof" and insist that it is the other person's job to stop everything they are doing and address the issue to their satisfaction.

Pretense to politeness and sincerity - Sealions are just "asking nicely" but they are asking questions that have been asked and answered fully many times, and are unwilling to so much as open a tab to look up the answer, nor will they recognize the validity of your sources, your experience or expertise

The quora definition is how it's generally understood.

Educate yourself. It's not my job to fill that spectacular knowledge gap you have.

Chester I found your post interesting, thoughtful and a good reflection of what many of Catholic feminists I know, think.

Last so would you join forces with any group that says they oppose self-ID? What if UKIP or some other right wing group made a statement against it?

As someone pointed out, you are more or less totally undermining your credibility. The Catholic Church does not believe gender is a social construct. They believe that men and women are fundamentally different by nature and have pre-ordained roles. Men’s is to lead and participate in society, women’s is to bear children and look after the home. Are you suddenly cool with that just because they happen to agree on one point you are making?

You can recognise that someone is making a valid argument on a particular point without “aligning” yourself to every single ideological position they take. Discourse is about agreeing or disagreeing with ideas and concepts. I find the personalisation of discourse in the modern age disturbing and yes. verging on bigoted at times. One can agree on certain things while respectfully disagreeing on others. I very much doubt that being pleased that the Church has spoken out on this one narrow issue will lead to either them or wider society thinking you’ve aligned to all of the church’s views.