A Statement on Gender from the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales

[massi71]

catholicnews.org.uk/plenary-april18-gender

I thought this might be interesting to read. As far as I can see it's the only organisation that's openly expressing reservations about the dangers of uncontrolled self ID (I could be wrong though)

Like it or not, if the Catholic Church speaks out about transgender extremism (eg self-ID) it will probably help bring it to wider awareness...

Break - please show me where the Church's "official doctrine" talks about the "biological inferiority" of women.

Pop - I don't think the Church would ever respond in that way in such a situation, because a) it would be quite rude and b) it would be encouraging a very unhealthy cognitive dissonance in the priest in question.

"Citing the Catholic church to promote women's rights, is like using Hitler to endorse vegetarianism."

Wow. I'm going to attempt to turn the other cheek at that.

please show me where the Church's "official doctrine" talks about the "biological inferiority" of women.

Who gives a toss what it says in the official doctrine? The important thing is the way they have always behaved towards women and still do. It's breathtakingly horrific and hateful. Magdalene laundries, hushing up sexual abuse, stopping women from regulating their own fertility, forcing rape victims to give birth against their will, stopping cancer patients from accessing treatment because they are pregnant, decreeing that women cannot be priests.

Wow. I'm going to attempt to turn the other cheek at that.

sadly it's a fair point though

I think it is a compassionate and sensible statement. Shame some people have taken this as a chance to bash the Catholic church.

Chester,

All the people with power in the Catholic church are men.

The men are the only ones with the authority to tell the women whether or not they can control their own fertility (and it’s a no)

So it’s not Woman-friendly. Though I’m sure it can feel it if you are comfortable complying.

However, I do have a soft spot for Francis

"hushing up sexual abuse - has (wrongly and shamefully) happened in every large organisation in the world;

stopping women from regulating their own fertility - how?

forcing rape victims to give birth against their will - how??

stopping cancer patients from accessing treatment because they are pregnant - how???

On all of these matters, there is Church teaching, which the faithful are encouraged to live and believe. They are also free to disagree, and act otherwise; what mechanism are you suggesting the church has, for forcing people to follow its teaching if they don't wish to?

decreeing that women cannot be priests - yes. And..? You are the one basing the worth of women on how similar they can be to men. I totally disagree with that premise.

“Like it or not, if the Catholic Church speaks out about transgender extremism (eg self-ID) it will probably help bring it to wider awareness...“

Agree.

Hi Chester,

The church stops women from controlling their own fertility by preaching that contraception is a sin.

please show me where the Church's "official doctrine" talks about the "biological inferiority" of women.

Seriously? From Aquinas onwards the Church has been adamant about women being the inferior mix.

And woman as a class are denied access to the sacrament of the priesthood on the sole grounds of non-male biology!

decreeing that women cannot be priests - yes. And..?

And the priests hold all the power and authority. The women hold none. I nearly wrote nun!

forcing rape victims to give birth against their will - how??

One of the greatest incentives for me to leave the Church was its involvement in the X case in Ireland, trying to force a child rape victim to give birth against her will.

Are you not aware that abortion is outlawed in Ireland Chester??? I find it incredulous that anyone would ask how the Catholic Church prevents women from controlling their own bodies and fertility.

As for 'ooh lots of organisations have covered up sexual abuse', well few on such a huge scale as the Catholic Church. The Magdalene laundries were also another wide-scale abuse against women in the name of God. Because getting pregnant out of wedlock is the worst thing ever and you must must be punished for it.

Seriously, take a look at yourself if you think this is unproblematic.

There have been other, similar threads referencing organisations like "Hands Across the Aisle" (IIRC), which is a consortium of very unlikely bedfellows, radical feminists along with conservative Christians from various denominations, perhaps other religions also, who have put aside their (considerable) differences in the hope of making a stronger stand together against the erosion of sexual identity and the creep of transgender ideology.

The vitriol that erupts on this board against them, and the mere idea of (figuratively) 'touching' a Christian is unbelievable. It's one of the last kinds of bigotry still thriving in the world today - in which Catholicism can be compared with Nazism and no one blinks an eye.

In the Catholic Church, there's a difference between the validity and licitness of a sacrament. A biological male who self-identified as female could be validly ordained a priest but it would never actually happen in reality because s/he would fail the psychological testing, selection process etc. so it wouldn't be a licit ordination.

Who gives a toss what it says in the official doctrine?
Most practising Catholics do. That's how we understand anything about the mystery of God or what the Church teaches about anything at all. I would go so far as to say that caring about what the 'official doctrine' is is one of the most defining features of Catholicism.

The examples you then go on to give are quite confused, e.g. 'decreeing that women cannot be priests' is part of the doctrine of the Church. Preventing pregnant cancer patients from accessing treatment is not only not the doctrine of the Church but directly against it. I would be interested to know where and who was involved in that, I really doubt it was anyone seriously involved in the Church.

It is also untrue that priests hold all the power and authority in the Church. For example, today Pope Francis appointed 5 new people to the CDF (what used to be the Inquisition): three of them are women and two are priests.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/ireland-woman-forced-caesarean-pregnant-rape-friend

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-with-cancer-denied-care-because-of-abortion-laws-mzmc3klt2

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2771725/I-want-apology-I-die-The-wayward-women-abused-nuns-Ireland-s-notorious-Magdalene-laundries-demanding-justice-two-decades-one-closed.html

Chester, I agree that the reduction ad Hitlerem thing was unreasonable.

However, the church itself has form for comparing abortion to the holocaust does it not?

I am happy to reach across the aisle.

Most practising Catholics do. That's how we understand anything about the mystery of God or what the Church teaches about anything at all. I would go so far as to say that caring about what the 'official doctrine' is is one of the most defining features of Catholicism

Okay then if it doesn't say it in your doctrine maybe your priests can stop sticking their beaks into matters of women's bodily autonomy and then maybe people would stop slagging Catholicism off... Just a thought.

Thanks - Church teaching is just that: its teaching. I repeat, the Church cannot and does not control anybody. We are all free to do what we think is right; notwithstanding, the Church has a duty to preach what it believes to be 'The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality' (which is a Vatican Document, and worth a read by anyone who is actually interested in understanding what the Church really teaches on the matter, and why; not many of you, then).

Church teaching cannot force anyone to do anything.

The Inquisition?

You’re messing with me, surely?

The examples you then go on to give are quite confused, e.g. 'decreeing that women cannot be priests' is part of the doctrine of the Church. Preventing pregnant cancer patients from accessing treatment is not only not the doctrine of the Church but directly against it. I would be interested to know where and who was involved in that, I really doubt it was anyone seriously involved in the Church.

Riiight, let's ask some priests whether they would permit abortion on compassionate grounds or because the mother needs cancer treatment, shall we? I do wonder what their response might be.

The point is that the catholic church and its doctrine dominates Irish society and politics. You cannot separate the two because they are intertwined. I don't know the precise words in your holy texts but I do know the shameful and abhorrent way Ireland treats vulnerable women.

When it prevents me getting an abortion it controls me.

I’m fine with religions provided the6 have no power!

We are all free to do what we think is right

Apart from where that thing is having an abortion because you are terrified young woman who does not want to be pregnant. Then you can't do it and you have to scrape the money together to go to another country where you know nobody. If the church butted out of the abortion debate I would have an ounce of understanding of what you were saying. But no, plenty of white middle-aged male priests determined to have their say on how evil and sinful these women who dare to get pregnant are and how they should just sacrifice their own bodies.

I cross-posted with you, Thanks - I'm happy you're happy to reach across the aisle!

If the church has spoken about abortion in terms of a holocaust (and I don't know that it has), I imagine it would be because of the huge numbers of innocent lives/souls lost in both. (I'm not going to de-rail the thread into a 'when does life begin' argument.)