A Statement on Gender from the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales

[massi71]

catholicnews.org.uk/plenary-april18-gender

I thought this might be interesting to read. As far as I can see it's the only organisation that's openly expressing reservations about the dangers of uncontrolled self ID (I could be wrong though)

Preventing pregnant cancer patients from accessing treatment is not only not the doctrine of the Church but directly against it

Not only denied cancer treatment, but denied painkillers when dying in agony.

If the church has spoken about abortion in terms of a holocaust (and I don't know that it has), I imagine it would be because of the huge numbers of innocent lives/souls lost in both. (I'm not going to de-rail the thread into a 'when does life begin' argument.)

Yes, a woman taking a pill to expel some cells from her body is the same as millions of people persecuted and murdered. I can definitely see the logical comparison there.

I understand Chester.

Happy to start a separate thread on abortion (it’s always going to derail us)

Maybe we should ask whether the Catholic Church is interested in what feminists think, and in reaching out to feminists? Can it overlook the things feminists say and do that it thinks are wrong?

Riiight, let's ask some priests whether they would permit abortion on compassionate grounds or because the mother needs cancer treatment, shall we? I do wonder what their response might be.

Whether or not a woman choses to do these things, has nothing to do with her priest

.....my relatives are charismatic evangelicals (not Catholics) and are obsessed with spelling out why the rest of us are wrong or right- for-the-wrong-reasons.

Catholics believe life begins at conception and are up in arms about protecting the innocent unborn. Yet when they are born, they can be abused, forcibly separated from their mothers, treated like dirt and when they grow up, treated like incubators (if they are female).

Maybe the Catholic Church should prioritise the living children and adults rather than bothering themselves unnecessarily about hypothetical lives. How about making amends to the women affected by the Magdalene laundries? How about compensating the thousands who were abused by catholic priests, figureheads of the community, holy men? Then they can go back to lecturing women again.

"...plenty of white middle-aged male priests determined to have their say on how evil and sinful these women who dare to get pregnant are..." - yet another vile and baseless accusation, violets.

I agree, though, that it is a 'sacrifice' to carry and give birth to an unwanted baby; but why, in a society that values free speech and personal responsibility, can the argument in favour of that sacrifice not be made? (I don't want to de-rail into pro/anti abortion either; my point is about free speech, not the content thereof.)

The arguments on both sides should be able to be made.

Whether or not a woman choses to do these things, has nothing to do with her priest

Do you not understand that Irish law is shaped by the teachings of the Catholic Church? Abortion is illegal because the church says it is wrong.

yet another vile and baseless accusation, violets.

Baseless apart from the fact that that is literally what they are doing. If you show me evidence of the church taking a compassionate stance towards women seeking an abortion, I might change my mind.

“I agree, though, that it is a 'sacrifice' to carry and give birth to an unwanted baby; but why, in a society that values free speech and personal responsibility, can the argument in favour of that sacrifice not be made? (I don't want to de-rail into pro/anti abortion either; my point is about free speech, not the content thereof.)”

I agree with this actually. I am perfectly happy to hear that argument and meet it. .

I mean I agree with it as a free speech point.

The arguments on both sides should be able to be made.

And they are being made, loud and clear. To date, women have been denied abortions even when their own lives were at risk- they are the voices that have not been heard, not those of the church.
I hope to God that the 8th amendment is repealed and people move into the 21st century. It chills me to the bone thinking about those poor desperate women having to travel to the UK for a basic human right.

Interesting parallels between the two debates:

Each side claims to be the underdog in each case. Each side points to the other side’s power and influence.

FFS Can we just be glad SOME organisation has taken a stand against these lunatics or are we going to argue amongst ourselves forever??

The Catholic Church has over a BILLION members so let's remember that!!

I seem to remember people falling over themselves to celebrate Rod Liddle - a known despiser of women who happened to throw a few scraps our way so what's the problem here exactly??😖

The problem seems to be, LastGirl, that in the 21st Century Western Social Caste system, the Catholic Church is Untouchable, along with all who sail in her.

"Maybe we should ask whether the Catholic Church is interested in what feminists think, and in reaching out to feminists? Can it overlook the things feminists say and do that it thinks are wrong?"

Thanks - the Catholic Church is interested in everyone, regardless of what kind of "-ist" they are. It truly believes that its message and values are universal and eternal. It's not really interested in winning arguments for their own sake, but rather in proclaiming and defending the truth, as it sees it, about human life and its relationship with God.

In defence of the truth that men are men and women are women, certainly the Church would not refuse to sit down with anyone whose views differed in some ways from its own - unlike some people on this thread/board.

"The Catholic church is not a friend to women" ...is your opinion, HerFemaleness.

The male priesthood of the Catholic church denies women equality and reproductive autonomy. That doesn't sound very friendly.

Will you provide any evidence for your statement "Back before feminism kicked off the church would argue that women were just a lesser type of human, inferior in role and inferior in essence"?

Not without writing a book, but thankfully somebody has already done gone and done that. The Gospel According to Women by Karen Armstrong.

Your knee-jerk bigotry is ill-informed.

That's rudeI was an active practicing Christian for many years and have read extensively on this. I left church because my tolerance for misogyny ran out.

We’re here to argue amongst ourselves.... mumsnet isn’t a political party or workplace.

The Catholic Church prides itself on being traditional but who would have foreseen that it is actually the front runner regarding women's rights and against the TRAs!! 😮😮

*Whether or not a woman choses to do these things, has nothing to do with her priest
*
Do you not understand that Irish law is shaped by the teachings of the Catholic Church? Abortion is illegal because the church says it is wrong.

Ireland is such a small percentage of the Catholic Church though, abortion is available in other predominantly Catholic countries, despite what the Church teaches?

FFS Can we just be glad SOME organisation has taken a stand against these lunatics or are we going to argue amongst ourselves forever??

No, because this particular organisation supports the gender hierarchy and believes that gender itself is an innate quality. How can I, in good faith, support an organisation which promotes views on gender that I believe are extremely harmful to women?

Thanks I don't agree - when there is one issue that has massive consequences we need to stop arguing and get agreeing!!

Okay HerFemaleness so let's just reject what the Church says despite agreeing with it!!

Why don't I kick my husband out too while I'm at it!!! After all, he is a man in IT so benefits from the misogynistic shite!!!!

We can't say that gender is an oppressive hierarchy and in the next breath go and get pally with religious oranisations who support and promote the gender heirarchy. Not if we want our credibility to remain intact that is.

It's normally the Union of Catholic Mothers who will oppose about certain things which go against the Churches teachings, they are all women - not all mothers or Catholic despite the name either.

I think you can turn up at the same party as the Catholic Church on this issue.

But I’d have to be wearing one of those “I don’t regret my abortion” t-shirts.

Chester has described the church’ own ambitions/opinions upthread.