The MNHQ Moderation Team: Thread 2

[BarrackerBarmer]

Follow on thread regarding the data breach situation:
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Dear MNHQ

I'm very grateful for the commitment to free speech you've publicly taken, and for Justine's courage this week.

A former disgruntled employee of MN is writing on Twitter about the 'transphobia' of MN staff, and calling you TERFs. She is showing a great deal of bias and intolerance towards women with feminist views, this may well be her honest opinion, which is no big deal I suppose, since she is no longer an employee.

At least, it isn't an issue until she calls a shout out to her
'friends who still work at MN' to report and take down posts by 'transphobic scum', by which she appears to be referring to any poster objecting to being called TERF by her friend.

Regardless of the personal views of the MNHQ staff, who should be as free to hold their own views as I am mine, I am disturbed that there may be a small contingent of employees who are invested in unfair moderation and will not be applying fair-handed principles, at least if the claims of this ex-employee are credible.

Can you please give posters some reassurance that the difficult job of fair-handed moderation isn't being abused by the 'friends' of ex-employees who are 'reporting it all' and taking down posts because any gender criticism means the poster is 'transphobic scum'?

Thank you.

Just like in many jobs you need a DBS check, those with access to personal data should have a full "activist" check.

You should be careful what you wish for. Unless you're willing to define "good" activism and "bad" activism, then a lot of causes you're probably entirely supportive of would fail that test. And the means of doing that check almost certainly breach the DPA, and in some cases employment law.

This is exactly what the scandal is about Special Branch leaking union and H&S activity to "The Consulting Organisation" or what they were called to black-list people from the building trade. Yes, that's "bad" blacklisting, and you want "good" blacklisting, but the road to hell is paved with those intentions.

And it's worth noting that DV clearance, which is basically what you are asking for, as well as being immensely invasive to the point that many people on the periphery of that world refuse to do it, is also something which takes six months and ten grand even for simple cases of new hire graduates.

Lang, I've suspected for a while that this nonsense won't stop until TRAs actually kill a woman. Or at least very publicly try to. What else is all the kerbstomp a TERF bollocks leading up to? There's been a very deliberate attempt to build a culture in which physically harming women for admitting that they believe biological sex exists is a reasonable, justified, and proportionate response. There is an online subculture full of people who're mentally ill and looking to lash out.

This is incitement, and it's escalating. Just like MRAs, it's all fun and games until you realize that "kill all TERFs" is not a joke.

I don't think the murder of a woman will stop it.

Having slept on it, I reckon the following has happened:

Young LGBT supporter and aspiring journalist with blog gets internship on Mumsnet.

She decides to get back at her past employer about the LGBT issue. She does this by using her aspiring journalist skills to write on her blog about how transphobic it is. In doing so, she uses a screen shot she managed to obtain whilst there, to prove that she was there and with a post mentioning the incendiary clause 28 for added fire power!

What she has actually done is to break her NDA. She has put a poster in the firing line who was actually on her side because she has looked with blinkered eyes, and failed to understand what was actually written in the post. She has failed to understand that by including the IP address that she has semi-doxxed that poster who was on her side, as well as the other posters who were also taken out of context and don't say anything hateful anyway.

So now she has withdrawn from social media and taken the thread down (probably should have done that first ) her postings are being circulated by the nutjobs in the twitter sewer and there is nothing more she can do about it, other than to counter it with a public apology and climb down off her high horse and say she was wrong.

She has messed up employment wise and proved herself to be not very savvy, which is not a good look. #HownottoWinFriendsandInfluencePeople!
I have 24 yr olds and know how lucky she was to have had this opportunity. It was a fine addition to a CV and she has chucked it overboard with everything else.

I am not convinced that she had that much access - she was probably spending some time finding out about what the work on the coal face is like and took advantage. It will be hard to believe anything she says now. However, time will tell.

eatsleep yy I thought that too. But I think that would rest on a fundamental misunderstanding of how important the issues are to lots of posters and on a misguided belief that making women discuss elsewhere is the same as making them be silent.
These discussions are happening in lots of places in RL and online.
If TRAs had any sense, they would appreciate being able to keep abreast of campaigns and thoughts by simply looking at MN.

Whoa. This is appalling - let’s say the remaining few scales have dropped from my eyes this morning.

If Mimmymum has retweeted, it’s not data theft but it is entirely unprofessional - surely someone who works for a charity should not be encouraged to behave that way in a public arena.

It's absolutely vital to see the misogyny at the heart of this. This isn't just a disagreement about what gender means, it's an active, organized attempt to punish women for rejecting our traditional gender role and push us back into it.

The longer this plays out, the mpre evidence we have for securing sex-segregated spaces. With every action, these activists make our case for us. They don’t respect women’s boundaries or safety and they are not to be trusted in our spaces. The sad thing is that the quiet, respectful law abiding transwomen who have historically used women’s facilities will no longer be welcome.

So yes, Emma is a tool, and not particularly bright. That doesn't let her off the hook, it just means look at the bigger picture and watch to see who's pulling the strings.

Totally agree melamin. I think a young person has massively miscalculated and will regret it for years. I doubt any MNers will directly suffer as a result of her actions.

We absolutely cannot promote an employment protocol that eliminates candidates for wrong think. That's exactly what we're campaigning against.

I think MNHQ are doing a brilliant job in impossible circumstances.

Lang, I've suspected for a while that this nonsense won't stop until TRAs actually kill a woman. Or at least very publicly try to. What else is all the kerbstomp a TERF bollocks leading up to? There's been a very deliberate attempt to build a culture in which physically harming women for admitting that they believe biological sex exists is a reasonable, justified, and proportionate response. There is an online subculture full of people who're mentally ill and looking to lash out.

This is incitement, and it's escalating. Just like MRAs, it's all fun and games until you realize that "kill all TERFs" is not a joke.

It is escalating. Fast and furious.

And, as PencilsInSpace keeps saying, there is a woeful lack of leadership from politicians and leading institutional organisations. If anything, the people in charge seem to be egging it on. Even transactivists are subject to the rule of law - it's clear they themselves have not realised this but where are our responsible orgs? They should be drawing lines in the sand.

It is going to end in tears. And the subsequent backlash will be just as bad.

The sad thing is that the quiet, respectful law abiding transwomen who have historically used women’s facilities will no longer be welcome.

Totally, this. The only winners in this fight are men, who are managing to undermine both women and transpeople simultaneously.

Really interesting comments RefuseToDenounceBiology & CuboidalSlipshoddy

I have been making similar comments re MN moderation policies and them seemingly not understanding the "threat actors". They treat all complaints as valid and don't seem to understand targeting using complaints

This intersection between DV/tech abuse/MRA&TRA is a relatively new one with little expertise - I'm helping a womens service re tech abuse

I'd rather have a Mumsnet , even a fallible one, than none.

merrrymouse: "The bigger problem is data security and recruitment and training of staff. It’s ‘TERFs’ this time - what if it’s women planning to have an abortion next time?"

Exactly. Or a woman fleeing domestic violence. Can you imagine? We have huge numbers of vulnerable women posting on Mumsnet - women who have been raped, women who have been abused as children, women who are terrified their ex-husbands are going to kill them, women who feel suicidal, and yes, women who are planning abortions. Mumsnet should be absolutely on top of data protection and privacy. And it should demonstrate that by taking this particular data breach very seriously indeed - reporting it to the ICO should be a first step, followed by a review of its recruitment, training and data protection procedures.

We absolutely cannot promote an employment protocol that eliminates candidates for wrong think. That's exactly what we're campaigning against.

If you ran a housing charity would you employ someone whose sm history was full of accusations that the homeless were scum?

I don't think she understands the nutjobs in the twitter sewer either. She may be used to meeting people with similar opinions in the SU LGBT world and think they are ok. She understands what she has been presented (and we have all seen screen shots of the dodgy 'education' ) and has probably presented and has not understood how this interacts with the real world stuff. I worry because they are quite willing to act on misinformation.

HQ will do nothing.

What a dangerously malevolent and ignorant thing to do. Hope this is picked up elsewhere so that Emma Healey never has access to any sensitive info again. Future employers need to be aware of her track record.

And, as PencilsInSpace keeps saying, there is a woeful lack of leadership from politicians and leading institutional organisations. If anything, the people in charge seem to be egging it on.

I can't understand how the LibDems have allowed themselves to be associated with that vile twitter thread. It's been brought to their attention over and over again, AFAIK, and evokes just a weaselly response. Women's safety is just as important as TRA's, but politicians don't seem to care, they prefer the kudos of standing up to nasty nasty women.

I have been making similar comments re MN moderation policies and them seemingly not understanding the "threat actors". They treat all complaints as valid and don't seem to understand targeting using complaints

Given the group of women who're most at risk from data breeches on this site, I think a bit of education on coercive control and how abusers operate would be very useful for the Mumsnet staff. If you've been lucky enough never to deal with someone who operates like most abusers do before it may not be immediately obvious to you what the dynamics at work are, and the women who're sharing information about their abusers and trying to escape from them/stay hidden need whoever is handling complaints to be aware of how abusers might use them to continue harassing their targets.

Years ago I asked for a total deletion of posts and identity from MN
This was when the daily fail started lifting threads wholesale and publishing them
I had posted about an abusive relationship and I was the victim of coercive control. If my abuser had seen the details in the daily fail, or my co victim had seen that our situation was made public, I would have been in even more shit
I begged MN to just delete everybting
They refused
Againa nd again they refused
Over a sequence of days, they refused
They asked me to pick out the individual posts that I wanted deleted
So I had to go through all of the stuff again
For 2-3 days I begged
They said it wasn’t possible to do a deletion of the poster and posts

I then spoke with somebody who had done IT at mn and they said there is a button that allows it
MN said it wasn’t possible
My husband is a programmer, and he said there was a button that does just that- deletes it all.
They still refused to do it and I had to give them all of the posts that detailed my history of abuse at the hands of a family member
At the time, i didn’t realise it was abuse, but over those days, I didn’t sleep and I was very mentally unwell

MN finally deleted my history and posts

Don’t believe for one minute that mn have your backs
They have a commercial site that is worth a huge amount of money
They were also disingenuously naive and after this, insuspect they still are

The abortion issue is similar. It is ok to have an opinion either way - it is a democratic society, but there are people out there acting on those opinions in an entirely undemocratic manner that is dangerous to individuals. You need to understand that to work in an area where these opinions are seen.

Agree - understanding of coercive control is needed anywhere where there are large numbers of women.

I think the GG need to understand Coercive Control too. It might give them some understanding of what they have done.

As Powerofattorney says MNHQ don't particularly care about posters, you make them money that's it, this isn't a safe space and never was. Time and Time again they've failed their users.