Marks & Spencer protest

[invisibleoldwoman]

Here is an email sent to M&S today.

"I needed new bras. Normally I go to one of your stores, get fitted, get advice and buy several. Have a look around generally and maybe coffee or lunch in the cafe. Now, I cannot deal with the stress of worrying about whether I will have to deal with a male fitter, or men in the changing rooms. So I have bought my bras somewhere I don't have to deal with this. I have decided not to use your online shop as I do not wish to support a company that makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable visiting a changing room or asking for a personal service."

I have decided to send this sort of feedback everytime I fail to buy something somewhere where they have gone along with the self-id policy.

[LassWiADelicateAir]

To all the posters who are not concerned about this can I just ask why the hostility?

Please help me understand why you find the need for a single-sex changing area so -contemptible- objectionable?

It is not a question of hostility or thinking they are contemptable or objectionable. Reality is I can't remember the last time I tried anything on in a shop which was not a lockable cubicle. I don't come out of these wearing only my underwear- I have no wish to be undressed in front of men or other women.

I don't understand where all this talk about undressing in front of men is coming from.

Apart from Cos I can't think of any shops I shop in which sell men's clothing. I don't know if Hobbs in Regent Street has a unisex changing room. It probably has. It had a male assistant on duty amongst the female assistants. It is always heaving with customers and staff. The changing rooms are fully lockable wall to floor. No one is being asked to undress in front of men. On one occasion I asked the male assistant there to get me a different size. He knocked on the door and waited until I opened it.

As for a trans woman bra fitter- has any one been offered this?

[MsBeaujangles]

I have been reflecting a bit on the Equality Act and same-sex changing areas.

Crisp. When it comes to changing areas, you are saying that transwomen are not women because women are not afforded the protection of gender reassignment? Whilst women have some protection, afforded them through their protected characteristic of sex, transwomen are different, their protections are different, and their protections trump women's protections?.

[daisychain01]

Please help me understand why you find the need for a single-sex changing area so -contemptible- objectionable?

Personally, I don't feel hostile towards objections raised - people have their own expectations for using changing rooms/bra fitting service in M&S or elsewhere.

I do feel it smacks of leaping on the bandwagon of labelling M2F trans as guilty of being perverts, voyeuristic, gropers, etc even before the full picture is clear. Would someone really get a job at M&S for that purpose? What evidence has there been so far?

• we don't know how many M&S employees are M2F self ID, what could the risk look like based on statistics of how many are in their workforce.
  
• we don't know what M&Ss security process might include to safeguard and risk assess staff and customers against an employee who'd try to grope a customer during a bra fitting session, or take an inappropriate photo ( or whatever concerns people have).
  

There is a lot we don't know, yet some shocking assumptions and prejudices are emerging. It seems very "othering" to me, lumping people into a category and deciding they must all be the same. People are claiming that they are thinking like this to "protect" other people, but I think that's a red herring.

[Italiangreyhound]

Well done for writing that letter.

[Ellenripleysalienbaby]

I do feel it smacks of leaping on the bandwagon of labelling M2F trans as guilty of being perverts, voyeuristic, gropers, etc even before the full picture is clear. Would someone really get a job at M&S for that purpose? What evidence has there been so far?

What about women who just aren't comfortable being measured for a bra by someone who is male?

[UpstartCrow]

I do feel it smacks of leaping on the bandwagon of labelling M2F trans as guilty of being perverts, voyeuristic, gropers, etc even before the full picture is clear.

And there it is again, the disingenuous claim that we are talking about TIMS being voyeurs.

Self ID will mean anyone can self ID, and we wont be able to safely challenge anyone who looks male.
Stop pretending that there is any protection or gatekeeping with self ID. There isnt, its the whole point. It is going to be misused.

[Pratchet]

Susan: I wouldn't feel safe so wouldn't go. If you want to call it a boycott go ahead.

[CharlieParley]

daisychain01 I do feel it smacks of leaping on the bandwagon of labelling M2F trans as guilty of being perverts, voyeuristic, gropers [...]

As with all of these spaces though most women here are not saying that M2Fs are a higher risk but since the vast majority of M2Fs are fully male-bodied and straight they pose the same risk to women as other males.

I've read a number of articles over the last few weeks which had reported an increase in voyeurism offences (like upskirting, secret cameras, peeping) and sexual harassment where previously single-sex spaces had been turned into unisex ones. Please note that on the face of it this had nothing to do with self-id. It seemed more about following the trend towards unisex facilities.

Take the swimming pool where I live. Previously strictly segregated showers, toilets and changing rooms. Now changing rooms and showers are unisex, toilets are single-sex.

While waiting to change my youngest after his swim club, I kept seeing a large number of teenaged boys harrassing the girls. Previously that wasn't possible. It is now. No matter how often you tell the staff, they can't be everywhere.

Despite going to the swimming pool for many years I can't remember seeing staff having to supervise the changing rooms before the facilities became single-sex. Now the swimming pool has to assign staff specifically to prevent this harassment from happening.

It seems endemic which is why I want single-sex spaces to remain single-sex. Male - female (And as many M2F adolescents are heterosexual, again, they pose the same risk to girls as other male teenagers.)

[MadBadDaddy]

So where exactly are "men" with breasts expected to shop? Should they campaign for a Bra Department in Top Man?

[Pratchet]

Would a male person really get a job at Marks and Spencer for the purpose of measuring women's breasts in a private space?

#questionsthatdon'tneedananswer

[R0wantrees]

In the last couple of days a complaint was made to Primark Coventry that a trans woman was asked for id before going into the female changing rooms. The complaint was made public on twitter by their friend, a student at Oxford university.

Link to discussion thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225459-Primark-Coventry-challenged-for-asking-trans-woman-for-ID-before-allowing-entry-to-female-changing-rooms

This has been covered today by Pink News:
In a statement to PinkNews, a spokesperson for Primark said it was aware of the complaint posted to Twitter and that “we welcome all customers to use the fitting rooms of their choice.”

“We are aware of a customer’s complaint regarding their experience at our Coventry store and are in touch with them as we investigate as a matter of urgency,” the Primark spokesperson said.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/18/primark-investigating-after-trans-woman-refused-entry-to-womens-changing-room/

[TripleRainbow]

I've not RTT but my local M&S has full cubicles with locks, however it is a female space where women go to be fitted and share personal information about surgery, asymmetry, size etc. It is always possible to hear what's being discussed in the other cubicles.

I used to be a bra fitter and used to 'fit' men, as in sell them the bras with the largest backs and smallest cups and sell them bra back extenders so they fit. Men who have not transitioned do not need to be fitted with a bra. And none of the men I ever fitted ever asked or needed to try them on.

This policy is unnecessary.

[MsBeaujangles]

I think the debate around safety, whilst valid, always takes us down a cul-de-sac. NAMALT, NATALT etc. It goes on.

Again, changing rooms, bra fittings etc...they are about our sexed bodies. To base access on gender identity doesn't make any sense - except where someone's gender identity means they do not want to use the provision for their sexed bodies. For their dignity, another space should be provided.

This thread has got me thinking about bra fittings for transwomen though. Transwomen who have breast big enough to warrant a bra should be able to get the benefits afforded from getting a proper fitting; but there is no denying that where the transwomen has a penis as well, this is not a run of the mill fitting. I wonder if M&S offer special training for this!

[MsBeaujangles]

Madbad
So where exactly are "men" with breasts expected to shop? Should they campaign for a Bra Department in Top Man?

People with male-sexed bodies and breasts are different to people with female sexed bodies. We need to find workable solutions for all so that all can be afforded dignity. This is what this thread is about.

Would a male person really get a job at Marks and Spencer for the purpose of measuring women's breasts in a private space? There is a trans bra fitter who works in one M&S store. I do not think they have taken this job in order to 'access women's breasts'. My guess is that doing the job meets a desire to be 'treated like a real women'. Having said that, I find it fascinating that this person has put themselves forward to be a bra fitter. Many women would feel uncomfortable being fitted for a bra by a trans women. There is no way the transwomen wouldn't know this, yet they have chosen the role anyway.

[SusanBunch]

Susan: I wouldn't feel safe so wouldn't go. If you want to call it a boycott go ahead

I have been asking for the link to a statement that M&S actually have unisex changing rooms. The OP said she was boycotting them- she wrote a letter telling them. I just wanted to know what prompted it.

It has struck me though that when trying on clothes in several stores that there has been a male changing room attendant in the changing room, handing out those tags with numbers of items. Even though all the people trying on clothes were women.

[SpareRibFem]

We can always chose not to use a specific bra fitter at the time, so whilst I think it's a bit of a weird choice as they wouldn't have any personal understanding of how breasts change with menstrual cycle (although they may have more insight into what bras work best with implants) I imagine they would just not be very popular with customers and companies are there to make money, a bra fitter that no one wanted to use would not be long in a job.

I'd prefer unisex fitting rooms with secure doors everywhere, it would make life so much easier with children and I'm not too keen on exposing my wobbly bits to other women through poorly fitted curtains either.

[nemno]

To the person asking about curtains on cubicles: Yesterday in a large high street M and S I used the changing rooms on the (mainly) women's clothing floor. Only women were changing, it was very busy and there was a woman staff member in attendance. My husband stayed outside but another came in to the corridor bit between the cubicles without being challenged, so I assume the cubicles are unisex. Definitely all curtains in that room of 9 cubicles. Bras are in a different bit of the store so maybe those cubicles are lockable.

[Pratchet]

Susan: your own experience is wholly irrelevant to mine.

[Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar]

Why in the name of God do transpeople do this stuff? Demand to be employed in places like rape crisis centres, and now bra fitting shops?
It has to be provocative, surely?
They must enjoy the power of knowing just how uncomfortable they make women feel, and how little they're wanted in these positions?
I'd assume any trans person looking for employment as a bra fitter is dodgy on principle

[Pratchet]

All these companies annoying the people who do the most clothes, Christmas and birthday shopping

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

At 48 i have never been in a ladies changing room with a male attendant

Never...happy to believe they exist but its never happened to me

I have been in a unisex changing area with a male attendant

[R0wantrees]

The pressure is being put on Primark this week... from the tweet raising complaint it seems this was because a trans woman had been asked for id, not because they had been refused entry.

[MadBadDaddy]

@Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar - anyone with breasts needs a bra, so that means not just women. Even if they're not doing the fitting, they'll still be doing their shopping.

Also, I feel sorry for the poor sod at the end of all this - they may have had no say in where they were posted. Whatever, they would be vetted and trained. And how would it look if M&S just parked the transperson somewhere 'safe' or 'inoffensive'?

[crispbuttyfan]

sirvix the equality act allows gender re-assignment exemptions, in very few situations, and the burden is very high, it certainly does not cover toilets or changing rooms.

I've seen the anti-trans spins on the equality act and it is embarrassingly silly.

They use exemptions allowable between women and men, and position that as women and trans women.

The whole point of gender-reassignment guidance is that trans women are legally treated as women, and trans men legally treated as men. Except like I said in very few circumstances, that do not cover toilets or changing facilities.

[SusanBunch]

Women’s shops don’t tend to have male/female changing rooms. My experience was of women’s shops e.g. oasis, warehouse which just have a changing area but it’s sometimes staffed by men.