What makes a woman: documentary by Munroe Bergdorf

[DarthArts]

I'm too tired to comment sensibly.

I'd like to remind everyone re: no personal attacks and use of preferred pronouns (or avoidance thereof) when discussing a named individual please.

Not going to watch it. Heard"Munroe"(seriously? Is that even a name?)talk on few occasions, it was incredibly annoying, no thanks.

I doubt that Munroe is going to expose the actual process and activities that male bodied people use in an attempt to pass as female bodied. (I'm not talking about GRS, more imagining the sessions upon sessions of laser treatment, the having to buy special make up so that your five o clock shadow doesn't show through, the wigs because growing hair takes time and male pattern baldness is an issue, the tricks to hide your Adam's apple, the lessons in voice feminisation and learning how to walk, the bodily changes ...)

You see, I think this would be really interesting and could be sold as "brave person suffering to be who they are inside" or some other heart-tugging strapline.

And would allow a frank discussion of what it is that makes men feel they are female/women. Insight, knowledge, and reason - not the #NoDebate anti-scientific sentimentality crossed with violence that we get at the moment.

And we could hear about different choices.

Although, as a friend of mine said in a conversation about this the other night, if they want to be women, then they should commit to it fully and not keep their balls (we have a mutual friend/colleague who did just this - the whole medical/surgical reassignment- no issue with her, she just gets on quietly with her normal life).

i am not going to watch it

I am not I can stomach can someone update us when they have watched it and keep us all informed.

I'm pretty miffed that none of them seem to be renaming themselves 'Marge'

Oh, and I know of "Sophie Rebecca" from another online forum. I've seen vids of her ballet, and she's not very good. She would have been much better as a male dancer tbh.

I've danced ballet all my life as my favourite thing to do outside work, but hey I'm just a 60 year old woman, so no-one's going to make a documentary about me. Not at all interesting.

Middle-aged woman? yeuch! Useless now we're passed child-bearing, ugly and opinionated. And isn't it ridiculous that she does ballet. Far better to get one of these new-style "Oh so brave" women.

Apparently 'what makes a woman' is having every bone in your face broken and rearranged by a cosmetic surgeon, so-called 'facial feminisation surgery', a cute trans word for major reconstructive surgery.

I don't really see the difference between this and a bloke online using a porn star profile picture to troll, I mean presumably you could perform major surgery on a dog to make it look like a cat, but you wouldn't then do a documentary on it 'what makes a cat'.

Why the reminder about preferred pronouns?
I'm not being goady, I think personal attacks are very unhelpful to our cause but I can't see the harm in referring to a man as "he".

So my initial thoughts are as follows.

C4 have a history of commissioning "cutting edge" and "controversial" programs - this is their USP in the broadcast market.

In that sense it's not surprising they've chosen to look at this issue and conceptually it's a good thing that the issues are being highlighted.

It's hard to criticise at this point without having viewed the programs wrt the balance that each of the documentaries will strike both individually and collectively.

I do think it's fair at this point in time to have some concerns over the following:

• It would appear that out of the 3 programs, 2 are being framed as serious documentaries presented and/or centred on members of the trans community.

• The one program hosted by feminists is "comedic" in nature "using pranks, stunts and sketches".

• I think it's fair to say the the working title of the first documentary, in combination with with a main protagonist, known for publicly stating some controversial (put mildly) views is rather inflammatory to say the least. That may well be the point - marketing ploy???

• I'd be interested in knowing what, if any editorial control MB had over the content of the first documentary. It will be interesting to see how robustly MB's opinions are "challenged" and by whom.

So I suppose from my point of view the jury is still out, until we can view all 3 programs and take a view on them individually and collectively.

I'm looking forward to the doco on the Riot Grrls. They are ace!

Many of us used to view gender as straightforward; you were born into one of two tribes, pink or blue.

Are all these people as thick as mince? Can they really not see past the idiocy of all this pink and blue stuff. Zero critical thinking capabilities. Apart from all the ridiculous gender bullshit I am also totallly fucking sick of them putting stupid people on telly as if what they have to say is in any way useful.

Yes, we can tell. I think the text below this vid is a spoof, as the details of Royal Ballet etc are wrong. But I don't think the vid is a spoof.

@fruitlovingmonkey

Hi,

It's in response to posts made by Justine on the Spartacus thread (obv feel free to pop over there and take a look).

Relevant bit though below.

My view is that MNHQ are walking a tough line here and given I value this space (whilst I'm not prepared to lie) I'm happy to make life a bit easier by (in my case) choosing to avoid pronouns altogether.

It's well known that MB is Trans, so there's nothing to be gained by posting here repeatedly about their sex imho but it is reasonable to ask if the working title in conjunction with the presenter is not, well a bit bloody goady. We all know why that would be a legitimate view.

However I'm not the MN post police and people can post as they see fit. All I can ask as the OP is that people bear in mind recent guidance from MNHQ.

Let's be honest (if a bit shallow): the reason why transwomen are better women is because they are more likely to have long slim legs. It's easier to add artificial top curves to a long slim body with narrow hips than it is for a person with a stocky curvy body to slim it down to patriarchal standards. I know this, because I have tried, on 800 calories a day for months; and I have lived years in basically constant hunger. If only I had been born with better genes I could be slim and have programmes made about me. Oh well. Back to the housework

@DarthArts thank you for clarifying. I have had a bit of a break from MN and had missed that thread.

Quote from MB

“I’m looking forward to being challenged and hope this documentary sparks debate and changes perceptions.”

It does seem like the programme should be entitled “what makes a transwoman”

We can only hope it will #PeakTrans the entire audience.

What makes a woman? I find a vagina is a good start...

'A man's view of what makes a woman', perhaps?

The show will feature 'women of all persuasions'

No, it won't. It will feature women and men pretending to be women.

"What Makes a Woman?" (working title)

I really hope that doesn't end up being the official title.

@DietCoke87

I'm kind of hoping it does tbh.

It's not going to make any difference to the TRA lobby and their supporters, but has a good chance (content dependent) of peaking (pun intended) the interest of women.

It probably seemed a good idea when they planned it.
Bet they are scrambling now.

Women are featuring more as equal to men and not simply a pretty face or rape victims/ dead woman with no clothes on.
It has clearly confused programme makers and this is the result.