What makes a woman: documentary by Munroe Bergdorf

[DarthArts]

I'm too tired to comment sensibly.

I'd like to remind everyone re: no personal attacks and use of preferred pronouns (or avoidance thereof) when discussing a named individual please.

I'm quite certain that Bergdorf does not know the answer to that question, and would angrily reject any attempts to explain it to the viewers, given Bergdorf's previous statements about how terrible it is when women talk about their genitalia or reproductive organs.

To use a term from the 80s, this is a hostile takeover. Hopefully the program will help more women realize that.

Waiting with baited breath....

I am not from the UK. Where I come from, there are no pavements (so no high heels), women wear a version of trousers and men a version of the skirt to relax at home (it's nice and breezy in the hot weather). Makeup usually runs down faces and perfumes go rancid in the heat.

So far, I have been able to unravel the mystery of the two sexes and figure out who's a man and who is a woman using biology. The rules I learnt translated pretty well across continents, cultures and weather.

I hope the new definitions and rules translate back equally well - I wouldn't want to misgender anyone back home.

Gender Critical people are being invited on the debate. They want to show a range of voices. I wonder who the gender zealots will be.

Hopefully the GC contributors won't be chosen to deliberately goad but will be able to put points across while showing they're not "transphobic".

The programme blurb says Monroe will be challenged in a fierce debate with opposing views.

Can’t wait to see that...

I know it’s just a Ch 4 provocative title for a pretty standard format documentary about a trans woman - it’s just an annoying title!

If you were GC though would you go on it? “What Makes a Woman” from the position of a particularly provocative TIM with no editorial say?

To use a term from the 80s, this is a hostile takeover. Hopefully the program will help more women realize that.

Hostile takeover. Yup.

I worry it will be spun to have the opposite effect. It would be very surprising if MB consented to the release of anything that doesn't spin a positive tale of heartbreak and bravery that will tug at the sympathetic female socialisation of all but the most aware of watchers.

Precisely, SweetGrapes. I used to live in a place where the standard garment for men is basically a long loose caftan-like item (so, what we'd call a dress if women were wearing it). Some men also wore trousers and tshirts. Women wore either an abaya over their inside clothes or long loose trousers/skirts and loose tops. Despite the shape of people's bodies being thus not as clearly outlined as in places where more fitted clothes are the norm nobody had any trouble figuring out who was a man and who was a woman. That has been in the case in every country I've ever spent time in, and there have been a lot of them. Sarongs for everyone? Still easy to tell. Trouser suits everywhere you look? Still just as easy.

Abaya - long loose black robe that goes over the clothes a woman would wear inside her own home, for those who're not familiar. Usually made of very thin black silk.

On merry’s link it says “What makes a Woman” is a working title and is all about MB’s treatments, surgery, etc.

If it’s about MB surely the title should be “What makes a Transwoman”?

Ah yes, Francis the 8th rule of misogyny applies.

So what makes a woman is electrolysis and surgery? Well, at least that's honest, I guess. 100% wrong, but honest.

merrymouse that link starts off:

Many of us used to view gender as straightforward; you were born into one of two tribes, pink or blue,

Anyone would think there was no life before 2003....

Thanks for the news release (C4's term) Merrymouse. It does answer some questions. Firmly aimed at the youth market it seems. I'd be interested to see a piece by an 'old school transperson like JayceeDove for instance. It looks like they will cover transmen too, which I find the more interesting transition, never having had the slightest wish to be a man myself.

Who are these "many" people that they speak of, and when were they born? Because when I was a child we appeared to be in the process of outgrowing some of this nonsense, at least in regards to children.

We're moving backwards, not forwards.

I think it might be something as groundbreaking as not liking football and playing with Barbie dolls as a child that definitely makes a woman.

I might watch it but unsure. If it's just going to be a load of propaganda (and it's C4 so highly likely) I'll give it a miss. But I have been asking for years on FWR what a woman is (without using biology) and I've never had a convincing answer.

"A woman is anyone who feels like a woman"

"What does being a woman feel like?"

"Like being a woman"

Many of us used to view gender as straightforward; you were born into one of two tribes, pink or blue

Swear to god, I don't know whether to laugh or cry . You could only think this if you had never ever read a book or knew nothing about history or never met another human being. GENDER IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT - it has never been 'straightforward'.

"A woman is anyone who feels like a woman"

But back in the real world, sex has consequences for everyone...

newforestcommoner.co.uk/2017/04/26/new-forest-stallions-areas-2017/

I literally cannot see the difference between this and me blacking up, putting my hair in corn rows, wearing loads of gold jewellery, becoming really knowledgeable about hip hop, and then making a programme called 'What makes a black woman?' Documenting my heartbreaking journey from realising that I am actually a black person born into the body of a half British half Irish child, to the skin colouring surgery, hair transplanting and finally the need for acceptance from the 'cis' black community to allow me to live as my authentic self.

Along the way, I lecture black people about how if the campaigns like 'Black Lives Matter' don't include white people like myself then it's totes exclusionary, because 'not all black people have black skin'. I go head to head with prominent cis black figures and tell them how they need to 'do better' because they are only interested in campaigning for the rights for people who were born black, not those who lived their whole lives as white people until their transition to black in their mid thirties.

Channel 4 would totally go for it, right?

Because when I was a child we appeared to be in the process of outgrowing some of this nonsense, at least in regards to children.

Even more recently than that (assuming you’re not in your late teens AAK - apologies if you are!). Looking back through photos of my DC from the 1990s, I dressed them mostly in strong, neutral colours. The link / blue thing wasn’t such a thing as far as I remember.

Not sure why this person is being promoted by C4. They were sacked from a government role for holding dodgy views very recently.

Could they not at least find TW that have reputable standing?

The film follows Munroe as she undergoes dramatic facial feminisation surgery as part of tackling her gender dysphoria

Isn't it transphobic to suggest that it's dysphoria?

Then apparently it's about pink brains and fashion.