Sex-based interests

[MsBeaujangles]

Posted this on another thread but then decided to start a separate thread for those who are interested in joining in:

*Rather than reducing the number of posts about trans issues, perhaps we could move some of the debate on from being about trans people.

Attending to the demands of TRA has served to highlighted just how important single-sex services/spaces/provisions are to many of us. Now we have identified this we could, in some instances, stop centring trans people in the discussion.Our interests exist independently of TRAs. We can focus on what our interests are and what we need to do to protect them. For what it is worth, I think trans people would do well to focus their attentions in the same way.

In mediation, parties are encouraged to articulate their interests, rather than their positions/ideologies/beliefs/solutions etc. It might be a really constructive move for our cause if we begin to do this more.*

For people with female-sexed bodies to be able to meet with other people with female-sexed bodies to discuss issues relating to their biology and physiology, their bodies, and the life lived in a female-sexed body.

For people with female-sexed bodies to be able to request and have intimate care/examination/treatment delivered by a person with a female-sexed body.

Where same-sex provision is provided (hospital wards, toilets, changing rooms, refuges) access to such provision be determined by sex/ the sexed bodies of individuals.

I think the law currently allows for all of the above (Human Rights Act, Gender Recognition Act and Equalities Act included). When I come across instances where this isn’t being allowed, I am challenging it. I will challenge and proposed changes that will undermine these interests.

What other sexed-based interests do posters have?

Where same-sex provision is provided (hospital wards, toilets, changing rooms, refuges) access to such provision be determined by sex/ the sexed bodies of individuals.

This. A friend was telling me that they'd seen a transman who is a nurse on facebook talking about providing intimate care to elderly male patients with dementia, even though their families has requested same sexed carers.

It scares the bejesus out of me that I may not be able to guarantee my dad's privacy and safety if he ever needs this sort of care.

To retain/reclaim the legal and social meaning of male and female as based on biology.

To retain/reclaim the word woman to describe a human adult biological female.

To continue to be able to name, measure and tackle male violence against women and others

To continue to be able to name, measure and tackle sexual abuse including exposure to naked male biology for women.

To be able to differentiate in cultural situations who has female biology - e.g. If someone with a penis is writing/editing a feminist magazine for young girls I think this should be clear.

To be able to do all this without having to involve lawyers. This needs to be free rights written into the law, or it won't happen in practice, particularly for the most vulnerable.

To retain sports as sex-segregated
To collect data on violent and sexual crime based on sex

Thanks wine.

I am not being goady as I agree with your interests. To help us develop our thinking......

What is important about having the terms male/female based on biology?
What is important about the word woman meaning adult biological female?
Why do we want to measure male violence against female violence?

Firming up our thinking is likely to make sure we focus on the most important things and let go of anythings that are less important

I think also a case for collecting some data based on sex ( as I duplicated by OP thatbcan alsonbe done for other groups including race and gender identity ) e.g. Pay gap

Same sex spaces..to me a grey area remains with transsexual women. I would group them with female sex than with transgender women or men

Overall it is basically to retain legally and socially the category of woman for someone born with female biology. Anyone who is outside that needs a new category, as they have different needs and interests in various cases. Someone born male is not and cannot become female. The law should not suggest they can.

Pretty much everything else falls out from that I think.

Whilst I appreciate people can contribute in any ways they like, I would really like a thread about this that isn't about trans people or finding solutions that work for everyone etc.

It would be fab if this is a thread for people with female-sexed bodies just thinking about lining in female-sexed bodies and what is important to us!

Biology is important because that is the basis of violence and discrimination . unless you are lucky in your body shape, it is not enough for a woman to gender identify as a man to escape being treated as a woman

Living - not lining!

Sorry MsBeaujangles, got you. I spend far too much time thinking about this so it probably is time to unclench a bit!

The word woman has meant biological female for a very long time. It would cause societal confusion if you try to change it. If you change the meaning, history may get distorted

We want to measure male sexually driven violence because of its particular impact on a subset of the population. if you don't measure it you can't control it.

@midge - Biology is important because that is the basis of violence and discrimination . unless you are lucky in your body shape, it is not enough for a woman to gender identify as a man to escape being treated as a woman

Can you articulate this as an interest? Your post states a position (which I happen to agree with) but doesn't capture your interests.

I have very gender male interests. I thought of myself as no different to men. Until I was raped

I think using the "female-sexed body" kind of language does centre the trans stuff.

I am a woman.

i'd quite like design to take into account my biology more - so because of that I'd like people that share my biology to have a voice/be consulted on product development, building design etc.

without wanting to sound like a pathetic flower there are things such as building with massive heavy doors which look lovely (eg at the school I work at) all the children struggle, most of the women struggle, none of the men struggle [to open them]

my understanding is breasts make seatbelts less effective - I cant help wondering if this could be designed out or around

I don't mean I want a pink identical product and to pay more for it, or even a special girl only product. although in some cases that might be the only solution. I mean I actually want general design to cater for a different average than 'the average bloke'

@midge We want to measure male sexually driven violence because of its particular impact on a subset of the population. if you don't measure it you can't control it

Here, the interest is 'women's safety' and/or 'reducing the incidents of male on female violence'. The position/proposed solution is 'measure the violence'. There may or may not be alternative/better/more solutions , so it helps to be conscious of the actual interest that this is thought to be the solution to.

@pop. I think using the "female-sexed body" kind of language does centre the trans stuff. I am a woman

It may well do, but what are your interests in being called 'a woman'. Not what it is a solution to, or the ideology or biology behind it.

Imagine if no-one, who you think of as 'not a women' was seeking to use the term, what is important about it?

Firming up our thinking is likely to make sure we focus on the most important things and let go of anythings that are less important

Why should women have to renegotiate their existing rights and legal protections though? There would be so many unintended consequences we can't foresee.

The original GRA allowed people to be legally recognised as the opposite sex for a very small number of people in very specific circumstances with specific checks and balances at a time when same sex marriage was not legal and transexuals wanted to be able to marry people of the same birth sex.

Culture, numbers and beliefs have moved on since then. People born female are a different category to those who aren't. We need to have a legal and social category for women (born as such) which retains our rights and protections and identity built up over time and in law. It may need to include those already categorised as being recognised as having changed sex in law.

Someone wanting to live as the opposite sex needs a separate legal category and to build their rights around that.

Anything else is too muddy and not workable in practice.

adding what my interest is then I am saying I want schemes encouraging women into engineering/architecture/design and other male dominated industries and other, schemes encouraging women into management positions and positions of power so that people with this type of biology have a voice and say in things that effects us all.

one of my favourite bits of history is the history of the British plug socket at why it is one of the safest in the world. A woman was part of the team considering the socket and she had a very young child so she had not being able to stick your fingers in and get a shock as part of the design.

adding what my interest is then I am saying I want schemes encouraging women into engineering/architecture/design and other male dominated industries and other, schemes encouraging women into management positions and positions of power so that people with this type of biology have a voice and say in things that effects us all

I agree. I also think this is a powerful and effective way of expressing the issue.

Why should women have to renegotiate their existing rights and legal protections though? There would be so many unintended consequences we can't foresee

Rights and laws are 'renegotiated' or changed over time in response to societal change. It is important that they are - such as women being given the right to vote.

I mean I actually want general design to cater for a different average than 'the average bloke'

Yes. I'm short even for a woman, so stuff designed for the average man is generally ridiculous, I'm not asking for much, just for it to be thought about a bit - an inch here or there could make all the difference to the continuous discomfort being in a slightly too big world. Sometimes perhaps it's not possible, but I've had to use too many phones and remotes two handed because my fingers aren't long enough to hold and press the buttons!

I remember a thread here once, about a woman who'd been trying to get a uniform that fitted her, and had been given only a men's t-shirt, which then had to be large so it accommodated her boobs - I pointed out that if the shirt was large enough that the arms were down to her elbows, then she was certainly going to be giving everyone a view straight up the sleeve to her underwear whenever she raised her arms (having had this issue in the past when wearing DP's t-shirts). Little accommodations like having both mens and women's uniforms, which are equivalent (rather than business for blokes, and tight and sexy for women), but built with the relevant physical shape in mind.