Sex-based interests

[MsBeaujangles]

Posted this on another thread but then decided to start a separate thread for those who are interested in joining in:

*Rather than reducing the number of posts about trans issues, perhaps we could move some of the debate on from being about trans people.

Attending to the demands of TRA has served to highlighted just how important single-sex services/spaces/provisions are to many of us. Now we have identified this we could, in some instances, stop centring trans people in the discussion.Our interests exist independently of TRAs. We can focus on what our interests are and what we need to do to protect them. For what it is worth, I think trans people would do well to focus their attentions in the same way.

In mediation, parties are encouraged to articulate their interests, rather than their positions/ideologies/beliefs/solutions etc. It might be a really constructive move for our cause if we begin to do this more.*

I agree damn.

I want to see women's medicine given the same stance and research standing as men's.

Far too many women put up with things. A couple of examples from here: A browse on the menopause site often shows women not getting the types of treatment they need. Birth injuries. Pregnant women with hypothyroidism are still routinely not getting appropriate treatment, protecting them but most importantly their baby.

New Book on the subject. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doing-Harm-Medicine-Dismissed-Misdiagnosed/dp/0062470809

Article by author: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-dusenbery-medical-sexism-researchuss_5a9e01c4e4b0a0ba4ad72a3c

There's a level of dismissal and sexism about conditions that usually hit more women badly such as ME, CFS, Fibro and I actually think hypothyroidism, which affects more women than men, esp middle aged, has a level of dismissal around it due to the idea "it makes you fat".

Yentl syndrome, regarding pain: www.fibromyalgiatreating.com/yentl-syndrome/

I've lost count of the number of times my credible concerns about managing my thyroid hormones well in early pregnancy have been dismissed as 'anxiety'. Including by women.

@Wizzwazzwas

does this excellent blog help explain what you are getting at?

kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

for women left with a degree of trauma following sexual assault by a man, it is essential they are allowed to state their boundaries and choose who they consent to touch them. women can tell who are male but not which males are dangerous. unfortunately minor boundary violations (such as unwelcome comments and touching) happen so frequently and from so early in life for a lot of women that recognising and asserting boundaries can be a real challenge.

A bit yes. I have not been subject to a sexual assault though, so it's not a reaction to trauma per se
(Well actually some short knob on a tube train did once press his erection into my bum through his trackie bottoms, but my reaction was to that and roll my eyes, and I never thought of it as sexual assault)

I do cross the road if I perceive someone with a male physique walking behind me in an otherwise deserted street. I would try to find a busier street. My heart rate would quicken.

I did not want men around in labour -I declined medical students (all sexes, but to ensure males excluded -male medical students more likely than male midwifery ones).

I do find it hard to identify the 'interest' as such.

I'm the mother of a 1 year old and This - 100 times this

mothers also need to be able to talk about and get on with the business of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding without shame. often the environments mothers exist in are not supportive of their needs - the state of motherhood is quite a vulnerable time for women in terms of their physical health, mental health, employment, finances, realtionships and housing. yet a lot of this is shrouded in secrecy and reality can hit new mothers extremely hard. this can only be improved with sytemic change which can only be brought about if women retain the language to be able to talk about their bodies and the particular needs they have because of those bodies.

Thanks changey for putting it so well. Having not had proper sleep for over a year I'm not as articulate as I used to be (and it's not 'baby brain', it's not getting enough sleep!)

For me there was a big gap between DD1 and DD2 and the change in level of support around breastfeeding and postpartum was stark - it's got a lot lot worse. To reach a breastfeeding support group for DD2 I had to travel about 15 miles and I needed a car to get there and it was only open for short periods on two days of the week - there were no alternative options, unlike for DD1 where there were a few breastfeeding support groups. I've found it depressing things have gone backwards in this time. And of course, breastfeeding and postpartum groups I do think should be single sex (XX woman only) because you are so vulnerable at this time.

Wizz: This is what I struggle with. I have not been assaulted and come from a faorly equal culture where seeing naked bodies of both sexes is commonplace from babies up to old people. So, I am "relaxed" about penises. For me, personally, I would not mind sharing changing rooms or toilets with males if separate cubicles with sinks and bins were provided. I am happy to wash my hands or spruce up my lipstick next to a man. But I do understand it's my cultural upbringing. Similarly, do not care about who attends to me in a HC setting. They are all professionals until proven otherwise.

However, during visiting hours, I'd like to be able to close my bed curtains, so non-professionals can't gawk at my bloody sheets and haggard appearance. So, to me it boils down to situation. I have thought about women who have been assaulted by men being able to receive care and treatment from biological women exclusively, but not sure what can be done about this, if a biological woman isn't available for it. Also, I still believe a nurse/dr is a professional whether trans or homosexual.

I fully understand about males being more powerful physically, which is why they should not be allowed to compete as women in sports, but I cannot square it in my head that if someone is more powerful they are automatically a threat. I know about the violence statistics, but I believe we shouldn't tar all men with that brush and the problems need to be addressed at the source rather than deal with broad brush solutions like segregated spaces where not really needed. Once again, I do understand the concerns, but for me, it is like this due to my background.

I want to be able to define myself in positive terminology. As in 'I am a woman'. I will not define myself by 'I am not a man, I am a non-man, non- male, a cis woman or a non-transwomen woman'. Does it make sense?

Confused, I can categorically say I do not feel the same as you. No amount of rational argument will change my mind. Very happy that you are comfortable with all that you are. I am not. I recently declined a male masseuse. Face down on a bed pretty much naked with a physically stronger male body leaning into my back, absolutely no way. Did I think that particular man was a threat or would attack me? No. not at all, absolutely not. Would I have relaxed and enjoyed that massage? No absolutely not. The spa had a procedure as the issue was so so common. No-one was offended.

I also agree with the post above around birth, breastfeeding and motherhood.

In the topic of medicine/drugs, most volunteers for studies are male & between 18-45 yo. Only women can change that, so volunteer if you can. Around 80% of drugs withdrawn from the market because of side effects on women.

Wizz: I merely said I struggle with the same issue, but "the other side of the coin" in you will. I don't want to get anybody's backs up. And I do understand it's probably my upbringing, culture and experiences that have shaped my view. As it will have yours. Not sure what the answer is to it all.

I do agree that for medical/biological/research/statistical purposes there should be a separate official category for trans women and women, as otherwise it would be quite ridiculous.

Thanks confused. It's not really a struggle for you though is it? As in your only struggle is understanding the perspective of people like me? Your perspective is totally compatible with not caring about the body type of the other person in these situations.

This whole thread is supposed to be about getting to the heart of the interests of people like me, not about those who think differently and struggle to understand our views, iyswim.

Confused I've thought a lot about the medical professional thing. I think it's about consent - the right of a woman to not be treated without her consent.

I prefer having female obstetricians / gynaecologists but have had male doctors on occasion. I think the issue for me with a transwoman is that I would suspect (although not know) that the reason they MIGHT want to be my nurse/ midwife / doctor is for validation or even to fuel a fetish. That sets my consent spidey senses tingling. I DO NOT and never will consent to be a pawn in someone elses narcissism. If I'm having medical treatment I want the focus to be on me, thanks.

If I felt uncomfortable with a male medical professional and what he was doing / proposed doing (thinking the Larry Nassar scenario where he claimed he was doing genuine physio) I want to be sure I can decline the services of that male, and I shouldn't have to justify it or risk being called 'sexist' or a 'bigot'.

ConfusedLivingDoll
during visiting hours, I'd like to be able to close my bed curtains, so non-professionals can't gawk at my bloody sheets and haggard appearance.
Imagine you are being told that your need to close the curtains is insulting, and literal violence to other people. So you have to leave them open and deal with whatever consequences come your way. It might help you to understand why women need women only hospital and psychiatric wards.

IDK why you mentioned gay people in your post. Gay activists aren't trying to erase my right to consent, or my single sex spaces. (Which have only been aggravating to male rights activists, up til now.)

PTSD is not a choice. I don't choose to 'tar everyone with the same brush.' Its an automatic response that puts me on high alert when I am in a confined space or otherwise vulnerable, and specific events happen. Especially without any warning.

Deep seated phobias that are gained as a result of trauma cannot be extinguished, only muted, and only as a result of a lot of time and therapy. Every time we are triggered its a step back for our recovery.

The answer is very simple; 3 spaces and services. Men, women, and unisex.

ineedacup I found with most recent dc that far less people around me were breastfeeding in public. In school playground it was only me. One mother told me she only did it at home.

Wizz: I don't want to derail, but you touched on something I had thought about. Apologies if not in the spirit of the thread. I do struggle understanding general waryness of men in ordinary or professional situations (without a traumatic background), like you say, but do empathise with people who have been assaulted and as a result are fearful/uncomfortable.

Ineed: Yes, I do think it's about consent. I would consent to be treated by a trans gynecologist, the same as a male or homosexual one. But I can see, many wouldn't. What is there to be done if a female HCP is not available, as is often the case with the cuts? Sad how our health service is so stripped of resources.

Good to know that you struggle to empathise with me and others like me! Thanks for clarifying. I guess that makes this thread even more important, if other women like you are esssentially wondering what the issue is.

I cannot perhaps articulate it well, but maybe someone else will.

For me something about size/power/strength and potential for threat, especially when vulnerable. And it is not restricted to women carrying trauma (and anyway how on earth could this be measured/assessed?!).

I only mentioned gay people, as, theoretically, a lesbian HCP could "get off" on examining me. The same as a male or trans woman. To clarify, I don't assume any of them do, unless it becomes apparent to me they do.

I was, in fact, made to keep my curtains open on the ward, which I felt uncomfortable about. Only because non professional people were able to gawk on my nearly naked, bloody body in a healthcare situation whereI was nearly immobile, plugged into things and vulnerable. This applied for non-professionals female visitors too. Different from a normal situation of going to the loo, swimming pool, etc. For me. But did give me a little taste of how some people might feel if they are especially vulnerable for a variety of reasons. It's obviously not clear cut.

confused can you clarify what homosexuality has to do with it?

I personally do not consent for males to perform intimate care for me in non emergency situations. This is not because I think men will be attracted to me! Sexual assault by males is very much based on power not sexual attraction. This has been borne out by my personal experience, where assault and harassment has happened at times I have been more vulnerable.

I think this thread is useful.

Nevertheless on all matters trans I come back to the importance of legislating based on fact not belief.

Even if there were zero need for sex segregation it is still wrong to have laws and guidelines that enable and require people to pretend that a falsehood is the truth.

That was in response to Ineed. That someone would get some sexual satisfaction from treating me. Unless she meant some kind of non-sexual, twisted pleasure, in which case the mention is irrelevant. I, personally, do find it uncomfortable to think that someone could get that sort of pleasure from treating me, but unless they indicate they do, I'm none the wiser. IMO, HCP can have all sorts of unsavoury hidden thoughts that do not matter unless they act or speak unprofessionally and this goes for both sexes and trans people.

To clarify on the basics, I absolutely believe that women and trans women should be separate legal categories. To set it up otherwise would be nonsensical.

In a very basic sense the belief of being born in the wrong body is the understanding we are give about trans by trans people. Whenever it is discussed in real life this is the usual reaction and explanation given.

So why are people expected to have what is explained as the "wrong body" brought into spaces designated for their bodies? Why can't we say it's the wrong body when that's the explanation given?

I apologise if this is an unintentionally goady post, please delete if that's the case. It's a genuine puzzler for me.

Confused..firstly I don't think that providing separation is tarring all men with the same brush, I see it as respect from men towards women, more saying ...we know there can be problems with some men and by giving you space we are reassuring you that it's not us. .

.I would be curious if sexual violence / discrimination is at similar levels to the uk?

My teenage son has had pretty bad ezcema recently. He has only recently been going into the docs himself without me, tbf he hadn't been much in years until this flared up. I encouraged him going in alone as it affects his legs back, so he has to remove his clothes and he would have been embarassed with me there.

He would be mortified to have to deal with a female doc. I am fairly certain that he wouls have refused to see a female doc. There is a female locum on this weeks so I have had to wait till next week to make an appointment.

I'm fairly sure he would be able to tell the biological sex of a transman, as most of us can.