Sex-based interests

[MsBeaujangles]

Posted this on another thread but then decided to start a separate thread for those who are interested in joining in:

*Rather than reducing the number of posts about trans issues, perhaps we could move some of the debate on from being about trans people.

Attending to the demands of TRA has served to highlighted just how important single-sex services/spaces/provisions are to many of us. Now we have identified this we could, in some instances, stop centring trans people in the discussion.Our interests exist independently of TRAs. We can focus on what our interests are and what we need to do to protect them. For what it is worth, I think trans people would do well to focus their attentions in the same way.

In mediation, parties are encouraged to articulate their interests, rather than their positions/ideologies/beliefs/solutions etc. It might be a really constructive move for our cause if we begin to do this more.*

@pratchet
I agree about same-sex sport. Why is same-sex sport important thought. What are your interests in sport being same-sex?

Rights and laws are 'renegotiated' or changed over time in response to societal change. It is important that they are - such as women being given the right to vote.

That's a good example as it was a specific thing. What didn't happen was that women suddenly got to say they were the same sex as men in the eyes of the law on their own say so and thus gain all of the same legal rights.

Women and men remained separate categories legally and socially, and women's rights were negotiated over time.

That is the clarity needed here. Women born women are different and have different needs and protections from those born male. This needs to be recognised in law to have a workable system for women.

I think it's massively important to have single sex spaces for kids going through puberty, to enable them to discuss the changes to their bodies with minimal embarrassment.

Why is same sex sport important?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

Men are on average taller, stronger, faster. They will almost always beat women in a physical challenge.

Men don't care about same sex sport because women will just be more people to beat.

I care about women's sport. It won't exist if men pretending to be women take all their team places, college places, prizes, medals, glory and sponsorship.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

Regarding the short thing; I struggle with this.

I've now got a few issues with my pelvis/ si joint and I've noticed that chairs where I can put my feet properly on the ground are so much more comfortable. Planes do not have anything to put short legs onto, and I'm not even that short, around 5'3. Head rests also can be annoying as they push your head forward in the wrong place.

Most women are shorter than men (I know not all!)

@wine. As we have no way of knowing what law/policy changes will be explored in the future it is helpful for us to know/share our interest with relevant parties.

So the interest is for laws and policies to draw clear distinctions between people with male-sexed bodies and female-sexed bodies in instances where sexed bodies are of importance. We wouldn’t want sexed-bodies to be a feature of all laws or being used to discriminate against one group over the other.
What we need to be clear about is our interests in relation to our sexed-bodies

Yes Pratchet, acknowledgment of the absolute physical differences between men and women. I'm >90kg but even if I trained forever and wasn't lazy and old I wouldn't beat Laurel whosis in the weightlifting because of biological factors.

@pratchet. I am 100% behind same-sex sport. I am not suggesting it needs defending. I am suggesting that benefits will come from framing it in relation to interests rather than a position. So:
Females want to even the playing field by competing against people with similar physiological advantages/disadvantages (my wording is rubbish).
Females want to be able to train with other females/have female only sessions so those uncomfortable with their bodies will feel more able to participate etc.
Focussing in on what it is that is important to us helps us communicate our wants/needs more clearly

It is a basic human right for me to be able to name myself, describe myself, and choose to associate with other people who share the same characteristics as myself.

Good thread & thanks for starting it. It's starting to lift my gloomy spirits, which have sunk low thinking about my GD's future. I will contemplate any useful contributions over my various coffees during the day.

Pratchet - I know we shouldn't have to be doing this but if it helps the move forward ... and let's all be genuine here & not sarcastic in any way.

I agree @UpstartCrow.
It might be helpful to be able to express what your interests are in relation to this right. What is important about preserving it? What does doing it afford you?
I know these questions seem odd and possibly goady. I am posing them to myself too as a form of sharpening thinking and reflection.

I believe we still need a separate legal category for different sexed to make all that work. Some laws might apply to more than one category (as they do for women and men). But women born as women (versus those born male) need to retain their current language and definitions in law to start with, otherwise making any distinction legally is effectively meaningless.

Yes this:

It is a basic human right for me to be able to name myself, describe myself, and choose to associate with other people who share the same characteristics as myself.*

I am fit and strong. I am taller than average for a woman. I can usually beat my female friends at arm wrestling and kicking a thing a long way. I love to take part in sport and general kick arounds, mucking about in the park etc with other mums even now in middle-age.

As soon as men join in the dynamic changes, they always win because they are bigger and stronger (also can't be seen to lose to a girl). In a push and shove for the ball, either the man hangs back and pointedly lets the lady get the ball or he pushes her away easily or, most commonly, the woman drops back to avoid accidental injury because she knows it will usually hurt her more (none of the men there would ever hurt us deliberately though).

The women rapidly drop away and stop joining in. Within minutes. The fun has gone. The competition has gone.

If a man is already on the "pitch" most women don't even step on to it in the first place.

This is how I see women's sports at all levels changing if they are not restricted to female sexed people. This would be damaging to the health and well-being of the nation.

Keeping male bodies out of women's sports is necessary for women to aspire to, train for and enjoy playing sport.

Planes do not have anything to put short legs onto

They used to - then I'm guessing with the drive to make flying cheaper, things like the little foot rests you used to be able to flip down from the chair in front, the little button to hand a bag/coat on etc. all got removed.

Oh I see. So right here we are spelling it out at the most basic level. I see what we are doing. Thank you.

Being clear on legal categories and definitions also helps to differentiate more fairly between different groups, for example sharing personal space with someone who is a cross dresser vs someone who has had full surgery for many years.

MsBeaujangles I dont think you're being goady, this thread is very useful.
For me personally, the main issue is my consent, especially in women only spaces, and during medical procedures and hospital visits.

And there are huge benefits to sport, not just the "hobby" aspect for amateurs or the "career" aspect for professionals.

There are society-wide benefits with respect to physical and mental health, self-esteem building, learning teamwork, social inclusion.

If there are no single-sex sports any more then some women will just abandon those sports (or all sports) altogether. And of course there's a risk of deterioration to physical and mental health of society as a whole because of this. Obesity, depression, loneliness, that kind of thing. Lots of women in faith communities simply won't attend a sports session where males can also take part.

And where young girls look up to female athletes in the media and see them being displaced by male athletes, then that will have an effect on numbers taking up the sport in the first place.

We already have difficulty getting women to attend smear tests. If there is a chance that the person performing the test is male then that will have an impact on uptake. And this can have fatal consequences for women.

I don't know how to phrase this (or even if it's important) and it's not always true but....

Dancers compete to get into college and jobs - boys generally get into college more easily (at a lower standard of Dance than girls) then when trained are often more athletic/stronger etc

So there is no benefit in being female when applying for college but men dancing as women will display different skills/attributes than women and it's becoming possible that lead roles will always be taken by men who jump high/further and more strongly however they identify (Matthew bourges Swanland is a forerunner)

But I think my thinking is wooly/unclear somehow

one reason i think it is important to retain the meaning of the words woman and girl is that i believe there are several aspects of being a human female which are not articulated enough in every day life. i would like these things to become easier for all people to speak about.

people tend to prefer using less medical sounding words (an example is that people seem more comfortable saying willy than vulva or vagina. apparently sweden has come up with a more colloquial term for vulva in order to counteract this).

the words woman and girl still do retain their original meanings for the majortity of people. to have to sever these words from the biological state of the humans they describe makes talking about aspects of that biology less likely.

some of the things that i think need to be talked about more often:

vulvas and vaginas in general. from a child protection point of view, it is dangerous when small girls don't have a language for these parts of their body if they need to tell you something about them. not having an everyday usable language can confer shame onto these body parts. this can lead to adults for example missing smear tests or ignoring cancer symptoms. many women do not know that their vulva looks normal - the nhs reports more and younger women seeking labiaplasty. many women do not understand how their vagina works and that discharge changes over the course of a menstrual cycle and is not "dirty" but rather a helpful indicator of ovulation.

i think the clitoris needs to be talked about more often in the context of pleasure during sex and female masturbation. the fact it is not and the sense of shame some women and girls feel about their anatomy can lead to a lack of ownership of ones sexuality. this is exacerbated by the free and easy access to pornography that very often does not include female pleasure. all people need to know girls and women have a right to be as sexual as boys and men and that consensual sexual activity should focus on their pleasure just as much. many women find sexual pleasure is dulled by the contraceptive pill but without a sense of agency for sexual pleasure and the language to be able to describe it, many women stay taking it for years.

mothers also need to be able to talk about and get on with the business of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding without shame. often the environments mothers exist in are not supportive of their needs - the state of motherhood is quite a vulnerable time for women in terms of their physical health, mental health, employment, finances, realtionships and housing. yet a lot of this is shrouded in secrecy and reality can hit new mothers extremely hard. this can only be improved with sytemic change which can only be brought about if women retain the language to be able to talk about their bodies and the particular needs they have because of those bodies.

It's time that medicine and medical trials were targeted at females instead of males being the default. Interesting artcle

We need to address how women are treated in hospital too, often their pain is not taken seriously enough.article here

We have to acknowledge that 50% of the population are female and that male is not the default human.

How do I explain why I do not want an intimate examination carried out by anyone other than someone with the same sex of body as me? Similarly I don't want to be on a ward in a hospital with any patient who has male genitals. I think this is about fear of attack and being vulnerable. It is not that I think all or even most such people would pose any risk at all. It is that a tiny minority might and I don't want the chance taken. It is the whole premise of dignity underpinning the ending of mixed sex ward accommodation.

I totally get this thread and think it is a really good idea. Thing is I can't explain these things very well. I just care, a lot.

Women in STEM often find that they are looked down upon and dismissed more than men. Mistakes are treated more harshly (see my favourite comic strip on this, which reflects my experiences xkcd.com/385/).

Being talked over and professionally pushed aside is commonplace. Women avoid entering STEM because of perceptions of this culture. Women often decide not to continue in STEM after becoming mothers due to their experiences.

Women only scolarships, awards, training programmes all help women to feel that their contributions are valid and respected. It helps to showcase women's abilities to other women and men thus breaking down damaging gender stereotypes. If these are opened up to people who are not female sexed then those benefits are lost. Indeed the damaging gender stereotypes are likely to be reinforced. Women's participation in STEM will be reduced which will have a long lasting damaging effect on our economy. We cannot afford this.

Comic link again: How It Is