Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

@ReluctantCamper

I deleted mn app this week due to similar ishoos.

It lasted roughly 40 mins.

The thing is that this thread will show a range of opinion. It will occasionally get testy. It will, in the end, come to a rough but not didactic consensus that will help us all going forwards. It won't stop us expressing the gender critical position as best as we know how, whether or not we are mocked or insulted for doing so elsewhere.

That's what happens when women come together and talk freely.

Camper! I too am blocked as are the vast majority of us I'm sure

I agree with you by the way. I wouldn't choose to not engage, I think it is a great opportunity to speak to the lurkers. I just choose how I engage apart from the other night when I had one glass of wine too many and got more than a little sanctimonious

Random exclamation mark there Camper 😁 apparently I was just exited to see you

I think certain people on Twitter whose names I'm not using on purpose may not be clear on how the concept of going high works. I recommend watching more videos of Michelle Obama's speeches.

I'd prefer to appropriate her physical fitness rather than her slogan, personally, but I'm much too lazy.

But my point is Im not annoyed, im amused. Same as I found it amusing when the OP of the T thread tried to wind everybody up, largely failed and skulked back to twitter saying we were all hysterical (that old chesnut). The recent twitter post that we are referencing is the most hysterical thing ive seen on the internet for days! Somehow, I am finding it amusing now. Maybe thats the key. Dont get wound up, laugh at how silly people are being.

And wine glasses and strike through fail!!! I really do suck at posting on here. I should stick to lurking!

I feel just like floisme, especially this:
And I have to say, the threads about Lily Madigan make me cringe. I know the history but the argument shouldn't be with Madigan but with the Labour Party. I no longer open them as I just can't bear it.
I have no problem saying that a boy took a woman's job, but people starting thread after thread, and watching his every move. No, it's not on. My problem is also with the Labour Party not with one individual.
I think it's really important to be calm and factual and leave off any individual attack, and that includes trawling Twitter for trans activists so you can start threads about them which is clearly what they want.
I avoided this discussion for a long time because it seemed so OTT.
I'm NOT scared of men, I don't feel like they could attack me at any time (I personally don't, not saying I'm right) and I felt like it was a lot of frothing over nothing.
Then Caitlin Jenner, then the Top Shop thing, then learning about Mermaids, then the AWS..and I started paying attention, but to reach people like me you need to deal in measured facts, not florid hyperbole, because
a)it attracts trolls who want to play and
b)it turns off people who are new to the debate.
I don't really care that as women we are expected to play nice. So what? So we act like grown ups, what else is new? (I don't play nice in real life, I do what I like, but this is politics!)
Anyway, that's just my opinion as a long time lurker, take it or leave it, have a good Sunday.

Maybe thats the key. Dont get wound up, laugh at how silly people are being.
I agree. Some of my favourite posters on here are very funny. It's a very powerful tool.

What's engaging versus attacking, though, from MNHQ perspective? Yet says there were slurs being used in the T thread. I don't remember seeing any - were they deleted? What constitutes a slur?

Well, I'll stick my hand up with a mea culpa and say that I directly accused the OP in that thread of exhibiting male pattern abusive behaviour. And was pretty rude about it, although I didn't use any actual slurs.

I could have made the same point fairly easily by framing it in the context of a positive defence of boundaries and consent and about TRA activism and tactics generally. But I didn't.

My fault that the post was deleted, nobody else's. And I'm entirely prepared to accept that I did MNHQ no favours in posting it.

I support anybody 'going high' when it comes to public debate. I don't care who they are. Isn't that the whole point?

Maybe thats the key. Dont get wound up, laugh at how silly people are being.

This is always my first inclination but I have to point out that narcissists really, really don't like being made fun of and are likely to complain to MNHQ about that too.

Is it a slur to say men are not women? I don't think so .

One of the things I've been reflecting on recently is how the FWR topic came to be, and what I got out of it initially, and how it became a crucible for this kind of conversation.
One of the things that would probably be very effective, and also infuriating to anyone maliciously reporting posts in the hope members will be deleted or banned, is to use FWR as a space to also have feminism 101 type conversations.

I first came into feminism as a way of resisting male violence, and also celebrating women's creativity. What FWR did for me is create a space where I could learn about other aspects of women's rights and activism.

if someone's first way into these conversations is the change in policy towards self-ID, maybe it would help to have threads about other topics which would enable a broader understanding of feminist ideas and theory etc so that we can all develop - I do think it helps when we're articulating arguments about eg why we need women-only spaces.

tbh it would help with this tremendously if genuine male posters could respect the need for these conversations to be women-only but I realise that's not in line with MN guidelines so it would rely on people respecting that need, and maybe if they find a topic interesting, creating a parallel thread where mixed conversations could happen.

I miss the humour and kindness and exciting nature of FWR - it's still there but there's so much negative, embattled stuff just now which makes sense - these are dark times.
I am in no means tone-policing but some positive threads would be welcome - for me, at least.

Well my comment was taking the piss

It was also crude though

I think its really important to step back, consider how #nodebate was maintained and also consider the ways in which now there are the beginnings of open discussion debate might again be closed down.
There are many ways... some subtle, some overt.
Frontline 'spats' have been used and are being used in many ways. This includes manipulating people within the transgender community- on the 'T' post, I commented that I could understand how they might come to have their beliefs having seen their twitter following list (& the effects of the massive 'terf blocking'). We should not be so quick to dismiss the effects that the most prolific of accounts such as NotCursedE, Giuliana_London & KilgoreSprout are having...
Having GC concerns does not mean being 'anti-trans', 'bigoted', 'hate-filled' 'transphobic' 'right-wing nazi extremist' BUT this is exactly what some TRAs need to promote & fuel both fear and loathing...

JAmes Kirkup's article blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/ was really important, and I think worth re-reading just now... because how best to discredit and distract from it but by shutting down debate here?

"the people responsible for the fear and abuse these women suffer are not representative of transgender people as a whole; the transgender population must be assumed to contain as wide a distribution of vice and virtue as any other group. Indeed, some of those involved in this debate suspect that at least some of the real authors of that fear and abuse are not transwomen but men intent on frightening and diminishing women. Certainly, some male supporters of transgender rights seem to take a certain pleasure in the anxieties of women who question that agenda."

Well, I'll stick my hand up with a mea culpa...My fault that the post was deleted, nobody else's. And I'm entirely prepared to accept that I did MNHQ no favours in posting it.

I think intelligent, adult discussion like this is why the MN campaign has worked. Contrast the above statement with the inability of the TRAs we complain about to accept any possibility they might be wrong. I saw a post from @LangCleg suggesting they would step back from the discussion, so please you've chosen not to.

tbh it would help with this tremendously if genuine male posters could respect the need for these conversations to be women-only

I (a bloke) have rarely posted on Feminism topics in the past because (for obvious reasons) I don't have the experience to add a lot of value, so I just read and think. I've engaged a lot more with the anti self ID campaign, because I think it's important for everyone. Do the majority really not want men involved at all? In which case I will cheerfully respect that.

DQ, what I mean is that threads like this are clearly mixed, but if we were able to go back to some of the more consciousness-raising threads we used to have, like the 'small sexual assaults thread' where women shared experiences of what they felt were relatively insignificant experiences of sexual assault - that turned into a hugely consciousness-raising conversation and it would have gone down like a cup of cold sick for a male poster to come in and say 'oh but xyz isn't illegal' or 'tell me why it was so bad when I did xyz to my partner'.

It's basic social skills probably (which don't come instinctively to me so I like things to be stated overtly).

Some conversations are genuinely transformative when had between women only.
Which is why the whole self-ID thing is going to be an issue.

Women don't always get the chance to experience those conversations and being able to be part of one or two might make a huge difference.

That's not the main point I was trying to make but I do think it was a valuable part of why FWR has been so life-changing.

I've welcomed your contributions on this and other threads DonQuixote.

I - an old woman - never post on other topics in Feminism but I think you are right, the proposed self-ID affects us all.

I'd say your first post in this thread was an excellent example of why women often prefer men to read more and talk less in feminist space, donquixote.

The posting style you describe - reading, learning, being involved when you have something to contribute - isn't an issue at all, I don't think.

In the past, some male posters just totally changed the tone of a thread and I just think it's a shame when that happens. I'm not the thread police though - it's just an opinion.

I'd welcome men joining in the debate. As I do anyone who is trans.

The posting style you describe - reading, learning, being involved when you have something to contribute - isn't an issue at all, I don't think. but yes, like this.

DQ, what I mean is that threads like this are clearly mixed, but if we were able to go back to some of the more consciousness-raising threads we used to have, like the 'small sexual assaults thread' where women shared experiences of what they felt were relatively insignificant experiences of sexual assault

Absolutely fair enough. I think you have to be pretty tone deaf to chip in with your bloke's point of view on a thread about experiences of sexual assault or menstruation.

I've seen the idea that men shouldn't be here expressed much more strongly and generally than you put it, in the past; so thought the question worth asking.

I agree with Angry, FWIW, donquixote. I don't think it's the place of men to tell women what misogyny/sexism is, as you did to her earlier. But happy for you to be on the threads and post if you respect that.