Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

In general it's the threads about rape and sexual harassment and porn where I'd personally prefer not to have men sticking their oar in. There's one person who's consistently posted "i shouldn't have to apologize for being a man" type comments and occasionally rather blatant rape apologism in those kinds of threads. Maybe other women here are fine with this, I'm not sure, but given that MNHQ frown upon being confrontational I've elected not to participate in those threads any more because if I told the person in question directly what I think of his opinions on rape and harassment it would probably result in an immediate ban.

The main point I was trying to make was that I think it's much easier to form a robust gender-critical stance if you're able to discuss and learn about other aspects of women's rights here too. It's a brilliant place to discuss them, I think.
Thanks for tolerating the derail though, all.

It seems to me when men chip in with 'helpful' comments they are being helpful. Helpful in that it is so bloody obvious how patronising they are no comments need to be made.

I was in a meeting and a man was trying to patronise me he made a comment along the lines of "well women are like that" .......I didn't reply I just let the comment hang in the air for an uncomfortable amount of time. He looked around for support no one met his eye.

We can do that with posters. They are patronising and are met with " that's interesting please explain" they inevitably will make fools of themselves. These people don't need shouting down. We don't need to prove to them they are stupid, we do need to consider the audience.

I agree with Angry, FWIW, donquixote. I don't think it's the place of men to tell women what misogyny/sexism is, as you did to her earlier. But happy for you to be on the threads and post if you respect that.

@Ereshkigal. I absolutely disagree that I was telling angry what sexism is. I agree with @AngryAttackKittens sentiment, that women are held to a different standard on this issue, and apologise if I did not make that clear.

What I was suggesting is that simplistic answers don't help advance the argument. I don't think (from this thread) that that is a strongly male point of view. I do accept that it was expressed in a brusque way- it was mean to be comradely and I had the prior impression that angry was accepting of a level of robustness in discussion.

Wittering over, I shall shut up.

What I was suggesting is that simplistic answers don't help advance the argument. I don't think (from this thread) that that is a strongly male point of view.

Patriarchy is widely believed feminist theory, and you appeared to be dismissive of it. I thought that was a bit off. Especially as a man commenting. That was what jarred for me. It wasn't a terrible comment, just a bit tone deaf and patronising.

I'm posting quickly as I've just spent far too long reading all this (though time well spent - it's all so important.) What I'm taking away is the really public nature of this board now. I guess I was still thinking of it as an informal, anonymous discussion, but I think we have to be aware that we're making very public statements when we respond to posts on here, especially from first time users.

So, when a post pops up like the one yesterday, perhaps we should be aware that we're addressing a wider public and reply in an appropriately corporate tone. 'Hi OP, welcome to MN,' and maybe ask them to clarify the point they'd like to raise or question they'd like to ask before lots of posters rush in to respond to a goad.

Sorry - typing in haste, which is maybe not helpful given points made upthread about too many posts and pausing first!

If the implication here is that I've transformed into a delicate little flower who can't handle arguments, then nope. I'm trying very hard to stick to the talk guidelines and not be as confrontational as it's my natural personality to be.

There is never a situation in which it's appropriate for a man to scoff at a woman when she points out that what's considered an acceptable way of expressing oneself for him and what's considered acceptable for her are very different. To then explain what's "actually" happening in the situation in which women are being socially pressured into not saying things that it would be fine for men to say does not in any way intimidate or chasten the woman (at least not if she's anything like me), it just leaves her with a very low opinion of the intelligence and self-awareness of the man making the comments.

"Robust" and "too sexist to even consider that a woman might know more about her experiences than you do" are not the same thing.

Patriarchy is widely believed feminist theory, and you appeared to be dismissive of it. I thought that was a bit off. Especially as a man commenting. That was what jarred for me.

I certainly wasn't disputing the theory of patriarchy, just saying that it being given as a one word answer for everything is a bit reductive.

I'm very happy to have my comments pulled apart, and to defer to the views of those with better understanding. I shall be more careful in future.

(I'm not very good at this not being confrontational thing. I'm trying!)

And so it begins...

On LM thread

"A lady said something mean about me on the internet, please arrest her. Her name is TwigglyPuff57".

Unless the police can compel MNHQ to release people's personal info I'm not sure how this differs from threatening to sic your internet lawyer on someone 2005 style.

#TGLWGH

And now for something completely different! What's everyone planning to have for dinner? I'm thinking maybe panang curry with pork.

Might me a freezer night here angry

Feeling very lazy (as usual)

Whats penang curry? Could google but its the laziness thing

Even typing that has tired me out

@AngryAttackKittens. Must have crossposted with your PP.

If the implication here is that I've transformed into a delicate little flower who can't handle arguments, then nope.

The opposite, the implication was that you are happy to be bolshy so I assumed you wouldn't take offence.

it just leaves her with a very low opinion of the intelligence and self-awareness of the man making the comments.

"Robust" and "too sexist to even consider that a woman might know more about her experiences than you do" are not the same thing.

I made no comments about your experience of sexism. I didn't really disagree with your point, just thought it didn't go anywhere. I said: Certainly women's voices are often ignored, and women are sometimes criticised for things a man wouldn't be but obviously that wasn't sufficiently clear that I agreed with your sentiment- so I clarified and apologised.

You are playing the person rather than the ball, even with someone who supports you- on a thread about changing the tone of the forum to be less inflammatory. Insults because someone disagrees are exactly what the TRAs do.

I think we've derailed this enough, I will withdraw from further posts and apologise again.

No hate for trans people, plenty of empathy and sympathy for those who are trying to exist within a world that's so insistent on everyone fitting in narrow boxes - segregating clothes, interests, colours, toys, personality traits into "feminine" and "masculine". I can see why transitioning can be appealing, and I'm sure I'm not alone in understanding that. There are so many GNC women within feminism, many of whom have suffered as a result of our refusal to conform meekly.

Any hatred is reserved for those male bodied people who would abuse, attack, gaslight, and/or reduce women's rights. Surely you can understand that reaction?

I'm taking my dad out for a birthday lunch, Angry. Italian I think.

There is no "one size fits all" solution - I agree with a lot of the points made. I don't like the idea of us policing each other too heavily as that feels like censorship and tone policing and like a cult.

I like this being a place where those genuinely interested in Gender Critical feminism can come and ask questions and learn. I like it being a centre of consciousness raising. I don't like clickbait and drama. I like "slow" threads where responses are considered. It's the fast-moving drama that will attract unwanted attention imo. However I do like that we can be a home for fledglings like Manfriday for example - which now seems to have taken on a life of its own - and that's good. It's flown the nest.

I come here for smart, funny, intelligent discussion with other women - a cut above the rest so to speak. It's such fresh air. I haven't liked the "clickbait" nature of some of the recent posts - e.g. here's another bloody awful thing that you-know-who has posted - it gets you-know-who the very attention they crave so I refuse that attention.

I was reflecting recently, and reminded by someone's comment, that most of us probably have the equivalent in a degree in GC feminism before we open our mouths here, so conditioned have we been to being silenced if we put a foot wrong. We already have humility and need some support to claim our rightful entitlement in the world and this self id debate. I want this to be place where women can put a foot wrong and be supported in their learning.

But I don't want this place to be a home for OPs who tell us we're wrong and spreading lies etc I don't want them to be given air. I don't care they say they're trans. It's not my job to argue with nonsense - so I don't. That's not debate - there's no humility of their part that we may have a point. They're not asking questions but telling us where we're wrong. If no-one responds, the post disappears and dies. I can practice confrontation elsewhere - Twitter for example. I don't want this place to become like that. Hence my encouraging discernment about who and what to engage with.

Unless the police can compel MNHQ to release people's personal info I'm not sure how this differs from threatening to sic your internet lawyer on someone 2005 style.

They can, but I don't see how a thread on a controversial public figure is "targeted harassment". There would be an awful lot of people on all sides in internet court if that were the case.

Gosh, a woman telling a man his comment was sexist on a feminist forum - shocking.

Anyway, back to dinner. Panang curry is kind of like Thai red curry, but even more delicious imo, and richer because it has ground peanuts in it.

cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/3429/whats-the-difference-between-red-and-panang-curry

Sounds lovely.

(I'm thinking that talking about pretty much anything else might distract people from the urge to engage with the trolling attempts. Alternate distractions welcome!)

Can't remember who it was but someone mentioned the pleasure they were getting from felting. That's something I have no experience of so I googled and found a fascinating YouTube video called "Felting for Beginners" or something like that. I might consider pursuing this.