Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

This is a very chilling thread - and a very important one.

I can totally understand why Mumsnet as a responsible business needs to say what they are saying

And I think that their "brand" is a very powerful one in our favour - when we are reported as Mumsnetters say this or that in the media - people stop and think and envisage local mums who they know or see in the street, mums they trust.... they are likely to hear what we say with a more listening ear and be more ready to engage with the debate than if they are reported as views held by feminists (which sadly is still an unpopular and alienating word). The brand of mumsnet is so powerful in helping us change minds

A couple of other comments having thoughtfully read what others say:

• I don't think we post less - this is a discussion board - and for me (as for many others) noticing that so many people seemed concerned and then gradually discovering why is what has taken me to peak trans
• Pronouns - only recently have I realised how crucial they are - as violent sexual crimes are being carried out by "her" - so I now feel strongly about no longer using the sexually-incorrect pronoun... but I suspect give the current climate using they or avoiding pronouns in our discussions (unless having a discussoin about why we believe pronouns are important) is the strongest way to go - going high not low - enabling our words to be heard and understood by more people which is after all our goal ... i.e. not scaring them away by appearing to be angry transphobes to those who have yet to peak
• I am deeply fearful of the TRA capacity to come in and "demonstrate" how transphobic Mumsnet is - I think sadly we should be suspicious of all new names until they have proved themselves.... It may be easy for us to restrain ourselves, but how do we restrain those who come on here with malice to appear GC? And I suspect this is something which will start taking up more Mumsnet HQ time... as others have said, ManFriday and others have ensured the TRA focus is now on us

to all - and especially to Mumsnet HQ for providing such an incredibly valuable role in enabling us to find each other and to discuss what I genuinely believe is the most important issue of my lifetime

@AngryAttackKittens

No defending your stance :)

I support the idea of using initials rather than pronouns. Might be a bit grammatically clunky but at least my politics won't be compromised. And we'll all understand why we are doing it.

Reddit, 4chan, ARRSE etc don't get mainstream attention. MN does. People are listening to what we say and agreeing. We have the high ground, let's not lose it.

#TGLWGH #WWDS*

*What Would Datun Say?

Sorry to be paranoid! This whole thing feels like a minefield at the moment.

I think it's one thing saying that posters should not rise to baiting and goading (yes, me) and should post reasonably but a lot of the posts are being rather too conciliatory, which the TRAs are happily saying it's their victory.

And they are now appropriating #tglwgh too.

They do sit on these threads and watch

*In reality the feel of the place to many is transphobic.

As a business I'm not sure I would want the reputation that this place has gained, and as an advertiser I sure as hell wouldn't put an advert here.*

The trouble is some people are framing being pro-women's rights as transphobia. This is a tactic to shut down discussion.

It hasn't worked on mumsnet. It is breaking down more and more in the wider debate, thanks to brace supporters of freedom of speech and women's right to discuss their rights like mumsnet

Brace = brave

Though both may be relevant!

fine AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth, let them watch. And if they are going to appropriate TGLWGH and the meaning behind it I say hurray. I don't enjoy being called a nazi for understanding that humans can't change sex, so if that's going to stop I'm pretty damn pleased.

@loveyouradvice I think sadly we should be suspicious of all new names until they have proved themselves

Good advice - after all people don't deserve trust until they have earned it. We shouldn't give it to new OPs until they have demonstrated a willingness to engage sensibly - and I don't need to pander to any OP who wanders on here and demands support/attention - for example the first couple of sentences of the T post were huge red-flags for me. So I'm left thinking why would anyone want to engage with such a hostile stance designed to provoke - because we all know their assertions are not true - MN is as balanced a bunch of sense as I have come across anywhere :) :

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

"play the ball not the player" yy to this!

Frustrations run high, particularly when dealing with posters who are here to deliberately provoke and have no interest in debating in good faith. Let's face it, it would be impossible to change the minds of those who are personally or otherwise invested in TRA issues. But that, as far as I see it, is not what we are attempting to do.

"Post for the lurkers" yyy to this!

Lurkers who are curious, seeking answers or unsure will not be educated by antagonistic point scoring. Reason, compassion and patience is what we all need to post. Is it fair that we are held to higher expectations...no but it is precisely the respectful (but no bullshit) and reasoned posts of feminists in the face of a tenuous and sometimes quite abusive TRA narrative that helped me to turn that corner.

Interestingly I came across this post earlier

twitter.com/mimmymum/status/982900541230632960?s=19

And it seems that this thread is being appropriated. However, if it raises the level of debate (of which I am sceptical) from the TRAs, I see no harm in this.

I've just poured Ecover washing liquid into my washing machine with a huge "mumsnet approved" tag on the top that gets in the way and has to be removed.

That's the responsibility.

I've just searched for the word mumsnet on twitter and there are people saying "mn has always been political and boycotted stuff" (and criticising mn, seemingly that how very dare is have political opinions on certain things) but in the next breath labelling the whole site as anti trans. Which is completely incorrect.

That's another responsibility.

I said on another thread, I've learnt more skills in critical thinking and debate here than I ever did at university, from good quality examples. I doubt myself constantly and it took a year of lurking and questioning to get the basics of what's discussed here. And joined dots within my own experiences that suddenly made much more sense.

I've done a hell of a lot of WWDS too, and told her this.

wine
I disagee strongly . Mumsnet has a reputation for intelligent debate. It has been cited in numerous articles by respected journalists.

The Mumnet being transphobia thing is a total red herring. There are v few incidences of transphobia on here and it is well moderated.

The TRAs like to shout transphobia because they want NO DEBATE on the subject at all. They want their agenda to be adopted unquestionably.

Yeah, like I said earlier, many trans activists find stating a person's sex using the words "male" and "female" aggressive and see it as an attack. When discussions of FGM can be described as transphobic you have to realize that there's a rather unusual concept of what is and is not aggressive, bigoted, etc going on here, and that the goal is a level of control over women's speech that's fundamentally unreasonable. This isn't just about being polite. If what MNHQ are asking for is for us to avoid calling specific public figures out by name that can be worked around, but surely they realize by now that they're dealing with a movement where if you give an inch the whole highway will be taken.

Yes you're right camper, if they started behaving better I'd be very happy too. Go Michelle

sadly Imherefornow I can't see that thread as I'm blocked by minnymum despite never having interacted with her.

And that's part of the point. TRAs on twitter don't allow any debate or dissent, we should absolutely be prepared to engage. Politely, respectfully, with facts, but engage.

And that's why I'd post on a thread like donnabe's yesterday any day of the week.

If someone wants to talk to me who am I to summarily shut them down?

How hilarious that that person is trying to nick WTGLWGH, so childish, actually makes me laugh. With the pass it on, like kids do in the playground. Johhny loves Mary, pass it on! Actually made me laugh out loud. As if anyone wouldnt be able to see that it was being used here first.

Well we appropriated TGLWGL too. So what? Thank you Michelle.

I think we expend a lot of energy watching TRAs on Twitter and reporting back what they say. I sometimes wonder what the point is.

Christ you lot - will you stop being so bloody interesting.

Yet again I have ignored my children for nearly half a day, despite promising my self I wouldn't.

Off to go and be an actual mother for a bit.

What's engaging versus attacking, though, from MNHQ perspective? Yet says there were slurs being used in the T thread. I don't remember seeing any - were they deleted? What constitutes a slur?

It's all very up in the air at the moment and that's inevitably going to leave everyone a bit on edge.

Well mimmy appears to be unable to WTGLWGH, as has called anyone GC a terf, bigot and 'pseudo' feminist in the same tweet. Which is basic name calling and not rising above anything.

Oh I agree, no one can copyright anninternet meme, i just found it an amusingly base tactic compared to the intelligent debate hapenning here.

@Imherefornow thx for the heads up - the appropriation of TGLWGH is entirely in keeping with the MO of bullies. They can't come up with anything original themselves so steal other's ideas. Perfect example of what we don't do……

Take the high road, draw a deep breath and keep being the adult dealing with tantrumming toddlers (and we Mums are skilled at this - are we not?), don't rise to concern trolling and accusations of transphobia - keep smiling….we are winning the war ...

Sorry WTGLWGH. But my point is still that we didn't invent it and I don't see any use in getting annoyed if other people borrow it too.

"I think we expend a lot of energy watching TRAs on Twitter and reporting back what they say. I sometimes wonder what the point is."

You know I was thinking the exact same thing Flo and I'm going to stop looking.

And as camper says, it's a good thing if they start thinking on michelle lines.

And with that, I'm off to make breakfast for my familiy