Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

I've just realised, I bet a lot of the rudeness is due to people coming here from Twitter after hearing about you, and bringing that slight Twitter arsiness with us them

Hate towards trans people

I’m really concerned that the beautiful purpose of Mumsnet and its fantastic support for Mums is being put at risk by the concerted and orchestrated hate attacks on transgender people, children and their parents. If it continues I think the whole site is at risk.

I would like to remind everyone of some simple facts:-

• the Prime Minister recently stated that being transgender is not an illness

(PinkNews Awards)

• the Endocrine Society states there is an “enduring biological basis” for being transgender
• latest scientific research shows that hormonal imbalances during foetal development and

chromosomal abnormalities are key determining factors impacting gender identity (Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Dick Swaab PHD, Alicia Garcia-Falgueras PHD)

• evidenced based research influenced the NHS reclassifying Gender Identity Services from mental health provision to Specialist Women’s Services (NHS England – Specialised Commissioning

Women and Children Programme of Care Bulletin – March 2018)

• the term “transgenderism” is no longer a valid medical term as being transgender is no longer considered an illness. Today it is more commonly used as a deliberate slur to tag transgender people as being an ‘ism’

I do hope this information will be useful to you.

Welcome to Mumsnet, Sue0001. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

Sue0001 Hi
That's great advice on the term you advised us not to use. Would you please search all the threads for us and see where someone used it?That would be such a great help.

binarythis.com/2018/04/08/why-trans-exclusionary-feminism-is-anti-feminist/

I do not think it appropriate for you to post links to articles that defame Mumsnet. Sue0001

Bewilderness
I've already reported Sue.

TGLWGH

Hey Sue, I hope these small hours aren’t keeping you awake like they are for me.
Thanks for the information, as I am sure you are aware a number of posters take issue with some of your statements for various reasons. We’d be happy to discuss them in a calm reasoned manner, if you fancy it? Opposing opinions are healthy and it’s good to hash things out in a robust but respectful debate.
Was there a specific topic you had in mind? As I’m sure you are aware, it’s easier to discuss one specific topic with a stranger than bounce around over a wider brief.

I’m probably going to slope off to bed now, if my vomiting son will allow it but I’ll be happy to engage with you in the morning if you’d like a polite discussion.
Good night everyone.

There's a link at the bottom to Stephen Whittle.

I've already reported Sue

For?

Oddly enough, 'transgenderism' was just used at the end of another thread. It is widely known that this is another word that transactivists love to police and shut down. Rebecca Tuvel, a strong defender of transadvocacy, was absolutely blammed for using it in her Hypatia essay 'In Defence of Trans Racialism', onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/hypa.12327 even though she's completely in favour of extreme identity politics.

It's not implying it's an illness. More a movement. It seems a useful term and there's no reason one side should get to police language in this way.

@Prachet - unsure about whether genuine newcomers get here via Twitter or just the TRAs trolling. I'd have thought women would have come via other parts of MN but I don't know for certain.

Yes agree the entitlement of others to attempt to police our thoughts and language is a sight to see - again and again and again…It's as though they can't bare differences …

Hi Sue

Could you provide the sources please for:
the Endocrine Society states there is an “enduring biological basis” for being transgender

• latest scientific research shows that hormonal imbalances during foetal development and

chromosomal abnormalities are key determining factors impacting gender identity (Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Dick Swaab PHD, Alicia Garcia-Falgueras PHD)

• evidenced based research

as i find this really interesting, see this other thread where weve been discussing it. Its great that you agree that proper body dysphoria issues are caused by a medical issue, like most gender critical feminists here, as it shows very succinctly why we are so against Self ID and also why several regular trans posters (eg jaycee) also think that getting a GRA should remain a process that is medically managed, not just something any confused teenager or middle aged AGP can simply state.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3214788-Another-trans-related-question-sorry

Here's the thread, sorry

There is an attempt to organise a boycott of MN endorsed products, I don't know how to link to twitter so I took a screenshot.

Whenever I have talked to friends about the current transactivism, they completely agree with and recognise my concerns- and they are not MNers.

I can't comprehend the confusion which is trans ideology. Lost for words, and sad at the ignorance and hatred in this debate.

Oddly enough, 'transgenderism' was just used at the end of another thread.

That was probably me. I did consider transgenderology, but that seemed a bit flippant.

There is an attempt to organise a boycott of MN endorsed products, I don't know how to link to twitter so I took a screenshot.

I am fairly sure that the few transactivists on twitter do not bother companies such as tesco. Especially when if tesco listen to the stropping, they may lose business from here.

I think part of the problem is that people 'stropping' probably haven't read the many, many threads on MN. They have seen a screenshot of a post on MN that may have been taken out of context, or actually been transphobic and subsequently deleted.

I tend to use "gender identity ideology" to indicate I'm talking about the political movement rather than people - "transgenderism" doesn't make that clear because you could be talking about the group of people who transition, who may or may not buy into the political views.

I think most of us use TRA to indicate a person who supports that political ideology - such a person isn't necessarily trans although obviously many will be.

Hi Sue, I would also be very interested to see the source for - 'the Endocrine Society states there is an “enduring biological basis” for being transgender'

I'm not sure why Sue has been reported, it would be a shame MN feminism board became more of an echo chamber than it already is.

Sue

‘the Endocrine Society states there is an “enduring biological basis” for being transgender'‘

That’s not quite true. What is states is that there is an enduring biological basis for having a ‘transgender identity’ which is a totally different thing.
It supports the idea that there might be a biological basis for someone to develop gender dysphoria, which no one denies.
But having gender dysphoria does not mean the person is another sex to the one they are born with.

Gender non conformity is without a shadow of a doubt not an illness, but gender dysphoria is. To say it’s not denies many trans people the right to appropriate medical care, how is this helpful to trans people?

there is surely an irony of an inflammatory post on a thread about how to deal with inflammatory posts....

I am fairly sure that the few transactivists on twitter do not bother companies such as tesco. Especially when if tesco listen to the stropping, they may lose business from here.

I think - as F4J found out with M&S - that more MNetters are Tesco customers than TRAs.

I personally spend hundreds of pounds per month at Tesco - as I get a groceries delivery at least once a week, to feed a family of 5, a dog and 2 cats.

So we'll see. If Tesco damage Mumsnet by pulling their advertising, they'll find my money going to Waitrose.

Here is the Endocrine Society report. Happy to debate respectfully. There is far too much ignorance, hate and fear driving the debate about trans and women’s rights.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/priorities-and-positions/transgender-health